Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

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Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:31 pm

In the discussion about ravinat sir's new eBook on IR's genius (in the corresponding thread), we had an item of intrigue.

What should be the Thamizh term for WCM's "counterpoint" Smile

In ravinat's book, "ஈரின்னிசை" is used as a new coinage.

jaiganesh recommended "முரண்சேரிசை" and a number of forumers, including ravinat sir himself found it to be much closer to the original, besides being an interesting coinage.

As recommended there, opening this new thread to work on THAMIZH TERMS for WCM and other music forms that are not of TN origin Smile


Last edited by app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:48 pm

nice..
for me challenge is in translating latin terms like piannissimo,crescendo,legato - i feel they can be used as is...
there is a significant root word research to be done there.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:19 pm

jai, before going to complex ones, something simple Smile

i.e. starting from basics...what about Thamizh phrase for WCM (Western Classical Music).

Western = மேற்கத்திய
Classical = ?
Music = இசை

I know செவ்வியல் is being used everywhere, probably based on the equivalent coinage for the "classical language" as செம்மொழி.

I'm not sure if that is totally correct (though subscribed by language scholars, WTC group etc).

Seriously, செம்மொழி = செம்மை + மொழி.

What does the lexicon catalog for the variety of meanings for செம்மை?


செம்மை cemmai

, n. 1. Redness, ruddiness; சிவப்பு. (திவா.) 2. Goodness, soundness, good condition; செவ்வை. (திவா.) 3. Spotlessness; uprightness, directness, rectitude; நேர் மை. செம்மையி னிகந்தொரீஇ (கலித். 14). 4. Fairness, impartiality; மனக்கோட்டமின்மை. செம் மையுஞ் செப்பும் (தொல். பொ. 209). 5. Unity, concord, agreement; ஒற்றுமை. (J.) 6. Excellence, eminence, greatness; பெருமை. (திவா.) செம்மை சான்ற காவிதி மாக்களும் (மதுரைக். 499). 7. Fineness; neatness, cleanliness; சுத்தம். (W.) 8. Beauty, grace, elegance; அழகு. (W.) 9. Moon's descending node; கேது. (சூடா.) 10. Sulphur; கந்தகம். செம்மை முன் னிற்பச் சுவேதம் திரிவபோல் (திருமந். 2455).

I don't see "classical" anywhere there Embarassed

In the case of Thamizh language, the status of classical should have been பழஞ்சிறப்பு வாய்ந்த மொழி. For whatever reason, it had been made செம்மொழி.

அது போகட்டும்.

Why burden the classical music also with the same செம்மை business? If people say that is to impress upon the structural rigor, I can understand that PoV but still that is not the only reason we call it as "classical music". There's definitely the importance of being ancient, of being aged, having traditions and because of such qualitites "not-to-be-distorted" or changed.

That part is not reflected in the செவ்வியல் word.

At least the Indian Classical Music forms have their own original terms in Indian languages themselves (பண்ணிசை, நாட்டார் இசை, கர்நாடக இசை, இந்துஸ்தானி இசை etc).

OTOH, when we bring a foreign form, shouldn't we be close to the original meaning of the word?

Please suggest a more appropriate word for classical (better than the செவ்வியல் word)...





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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:51 pm

From twitter :

venkkiram ‏@venkkiram 3m
@dagalti @r_inba how about calling counterpoint as எதிரிசைதொடுமிடம் or முரணிசைசேரிடம் ? Smile

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:54 pm

Some responses in twitter for WCM :
https://twitter.com/r_inba/status/491241993801326593


...
செவ்வியல் இசை தவறு, 'இயல்' அல்ல இசை :-)
...
மேலைச்செவ்விசை

I suggested மேலைப் பழஞ்செவ்விசை or மேலைத் தொன்மை இசை / மேலைத் தொன்மைச் செவ்விசை...

Smile

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:13 pm

muraNsErisai is what I like the best too. Eerinnisai restricts counterpoints to 2 tunes played together. We all know counterpoints can have 3 or more tunes too. muraNsErisai is a lovely coinage.

How about prathibimba isai for imitation and prathibimba muraNsErisai for a fugue? Razz

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:25 pm

app_engine wrote:Some responses in twitter for WCM :
https://twitter.com/r_inba/status/491241993801326593


...
செவ்வியல் இசை தவறு, 'இயல்' அல்ல இசை  :-)
...
மேலைச்செவ்விசை

I suggested மேலைப் பழஞ்செவ்விசை or மேலைத் தொன்மை இசை / மேலைத் தொன்மைச் செவ்விசை...

Smile

Firstly, I am glad that we are all doing something very useful. Let's not worry about the consequences, adoption. I am glad to see the level of interest.

For WCM, I prefer something like மேலை தொன்னிசை. I was about to start with a complaint about WCM term in Tamil, but App, you are on a roll! I was forced to use மேற்கத்திய செவ்விசை in my articles, as I did not find the time like this to discuss and get to a better terminology.

Let's gather some body of words. I can always write a book and credit you guys!

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:30 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:muraNsErisai is what I like the best too. Eerinnisai restricts counterpoints to 2 tunes played together. We all know counterpoints can have 3 or more tunes too. muraNsErisai is a lovely coinage.

How about prathibimba isai for imitation and prathibimba muraNsErisai for a fugue? Razz

DM, good start.

Imitation - நகலின்னிசை
Fugue - நகல்முரநேரிசை

Thoughts?

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:39 pm

Yes works better. I was thinking between prathibimbam and nagal. Nagalinnisai and NagalmuranErisai is good, yes.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:33 pm

Any suggestions for the following?

1) Contrapuntal

2) Harmony - what do you think about ஒத்திசைவு?

3) Scale

4) Modulation

5) Cannon

We will take up others after we sort these five

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 pm

i have difficulty calling WCM "thollisai" தொல்லிசை.
Why because it is not that old. just a few hundreds in terms of age.
Classical word - doesnt mean old. If we go back to some of Jeyamohan articles,
Classical = semmai = something with grammar, rules, order - but with an overarching
need for beauty? அணி, அலங்காரம் etc., Being ornate and intricate are also other qualities of a classical work - be it music,
literature or architecture. so we need to find a word or coin a word that can encompass all this to denote that something is "Classical".
One thamizh word that comes to my mind is "Seer" சீர்.
மேற்கத்திய சீரிசை could well be a closer word. We can transpose this to our Indian Classical Music as இந்திய சீரிசை and phoenetically
and from an economy of letters perspective too it fits better than sevvisai - semmai - derives from sezhumai - which simply stands for richness.
Probably i am wrong.. we can discuss further.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:51 pm

ravinat wrote:Any suggestions for the following?

1) Contrapuntal

2) Harmony - what do you think about ஒத்திசைவு?

3) Scale

4) Modulation

5) Cannon

We will take up others after we sort these five

taking a stab at contrapuntal - wiki reads "(of a piece of music) with two or more independent melodic lines"
key is independent melodic lines - software world analogy would be threads = இழை
தனி + இழை + இசை or தனி + இசை+ இழை = தனியிசையிழையமைப்பு or
தனியிசையிழையலைகள் = contrapuntal waves in a composition..
next we have to dwell on the usage of the word in a sentence.. need to see examples for this exercise..

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:50 pm

jaiganesh wrote:Classical word - doesnt mean old

Then, IMO, Thamizh does not have any extra-this-thing to be claimed "classical" among other languages (regardless of how much we love it).

If we loosely define it as being chezhumai / chemmai, every language in the world will start competing to be called "classical", which I believe does not do that term justice (much like the genius term)  Wink

At the minimum, from the practical use of the term "classical", it has to be associated with பழமை, even if that பழமை is not 1000's of years Smile

Relative to all other forms of music available in the west, in addition to its grammar / rigor, it is also perhaps the oldest (that is still living around).

Which gives it the "classical" அந்தஸ்து IMHO.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:20 pm

jaiganesh wrote:
ravinat wrote:Any suggestions for the following?

1) Contrapuntal

2) Harmony - what do you think about ஒத்திசைவு?

3) Scale

4) Modulation

5) Cannon

We will take up others after we sort these five

taking a stab at contrapuntal - wiki reads "(of a piece of music) with two or more independent melodic lines"
key is independent melodic lines - software world analogy would be threads = இழை
தனி + இழை + இசை or தனி + இசை+ இழை = தனியிசையிழையமைப்பு or
தனியிசையிழையலைகள் = contrapuntal waves in a composition..
next we have to dwell on the usage of the word in a sentence.. need to see examples for this exercise..

Jai/App

  We have something going on WCM, fugue, imitation, counterpoint etc.

 I need something for Cannon and harmony next.

  Coming to contrapuntal, I prefer something on the lines of பல்லின்னிசையமைப்பு  as it covers melody. It is derived from பல+ இன்னிசை+ அமைப்பு , which is multiple melodic arrangement. Thoughts?

  Once we find the right words for harmony and Cannon, we can write a full paragraph in English, translate it to Tamil and see how the whole set of independent translations stick. It is like the job of a beginner trying to compose western music  Smile

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:12 pm

Othisaivu is good for harmony. A few questions (a little out of place for this page but knowing each term will obviously help everyone contribute better). How different is canon from fugue? Fugue I know is an imitative counterpoint. Always get confused in the distinction between fugue and canon. Also, how different is contrapuntal music from counterpoint? Aren't they the effectively the same? Has Raaja handled canons if they are different from fugues? (his fugues are of course famous).

Also, how good is உடன்மாற்றுகோவை for trills? Razz udan mARRam is rapid alternation and kOvai is an ancient Tamil word for swaram or note. udanmARRu can also service the fact that it is a tone and semitone (adjacent swaras?) in alternation.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:47 pm

canon - 
மீள்தொடரிசை
- denoting sequence of repeating melodies

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:51 pm

harmony - --  a fusing of distinct elements into a harmonized whole..
  i can think of  குழைவிசை

as in (உன்னையென்னுள்ளே குழைத்த வெம்மைந்தா)

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  app_engine on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:19 pm

சேர்ந்திசை is also used for harmony, in some circles Smile

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:26 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:Othisaivu is good for harmony. A few questions (a little out of place for this page but knowing each term will obviously help everyone contribute better). How different is canon from fugue? Fugue I know is an imitative counterpoint. Always get confused in the distinction between fugue and canon. Also, how different is contrapuntal music from counterpoint? Aren't they the effectively the same? Has Raaja handled canons if they are different from fugues? (his fugues are of course famous).

Also, how good is உடன்மாற்றுகோவை for trills? Razz udan mARRam is rapid alternation and kOvai is an ancient Tamil word for swaram or note. udanmARRu can also service the fact that it is a tone and semitone (adjacent swaras?) in alternation.

DM

   Let me take a stab at what a cannon is. It is known loosely known as, 'round and round' music. You repeat the same melody at the same pitch for some time. Listen to the prelude of 'Kandaen engum poomagal' from Kavi Kuyil. That's an easy one on cannon. The classic one is in the second interlude of 'Etho Mogum' where the violins play a few bars repeatedly, the same melody at the same pitch. When you change the pitch and also add a contrapuntal treatment, the cannon becomes the fugue.

  Hope that helps.

உடன்மாற்றுகோவை for trills does make sense.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  jaiganesh on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:33 pm

app_engine wrote:சேர்ந்திசை is also used for harmony, in some circles Smile
saernthisai has been corrupted word in my opinion - corrupted by two sets 
1. innocent AIR efforts by MB srinivasan and co where men and women sang together.
2. stupid and pathetic Western pop style crooning by frock clad females in ARR and HJ songs.
Both refer only to vocal  - but what WCM denotes is beyond vocals - it is harmony created by counterpoints, melodic bass and all the stuff with kitchen sink creating one total vision of music..
To explain that we need a stronger word and saerndhisai - is meek and gives me the same feeling as "saerndhu busla poradhu".. :-)

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:22 am

ravinat wrote:
   Let me take a stab at what a cannon is. It is known loosely known as, 'round and round' music. You repeat the same melody at the same pitch for some time. Listen to the prelude of 'Kandaen engum poomagal' from Kavi Kuyil. That's an easy one on cannon. The classic one is in the second interlude of 'Etho Mogum' where the violins play a few bars repeatedly, the same melody at the same pitch. When you change the pitch and also add a contrapuntal treatment, the cannon becomes the fugue.

  Hope that helps.

Yes, and I like Jai's மீள்தொடரிசை for a canon. How about அதிர்வின்னிசை for tremolo? Smile And how good is கட்கோவைகள் for scale? kattai (pitch?) + kOvaigaL (notes)?

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  fring151 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:29 am

I am a rank noob in Tamil ilakkaNam, but one suggestion - there would be more variety/colour if the words don't always end in isai right? (Probably sounds like Nasser requesting IR to increase the tempo of thendral vandhu theendum podhu)

DM, adhirvinnisai sounds a bit violent, somewhat like VM's violent ( as App calls them) poetic phrases  Smile

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:43 am

fring151 wrote:
DM, adhirvinnisai sounds a bit violent, somewhat like VM's violent ( as App calls them) poetic phrases  Smile

 lol! was fearing that but tremolo is defined as a trembling effect caused by rapid reiteration of a single note or rapid alternation between notes (trill is adjacent notes, a tone and a semitone, while this can be between any 2 notes if I'm not wrong). Tremble'ku vEra nalla vArtha irukkA? Razz

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:18 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:
fring151 wrote:
DM, adhirvinnisai sounds a bit violent, somewhat like VM's violent ( as App calls them) poetic phrases  Smile

 lol! was fearing that but tremolo is defined as a trembling effect caused by rapid reiteration of a single note or rapid alternation between notes (trill is adjacent notes, a tone and a semitone, while this can be between any 2 notes if I'm not wrong). Tremble'ku vEra nalla vArtha irukkA? Razz

Athirvinisai - Sound of Vibration, if taken literally. Tremolo is what Vicky described as a SOn papdi of notes.  A number of notes that have very minute differences, sometimes, even 1/8 separation between them being played together to create a 'trembling effect'

I am going to collect the words, write a para in English and use the new Tamil words and see if that makes any sense. That is the only sanity check. We can all look at the Tamil paragraph and decide if things hand together.

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Re: Developing Thamizh terminology for western (and non-Thamizh forms of) music

Post  ravinat on Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:33 pm

I need some more words to make some simple sentences.

1) Pitch - கட்டை?
2) Tone -
3) Tune - மெட்டு?
4) Octave - ??
5) Scale - ??

I think with these words, we can create a simple set of paragraphs and do an acid test. Tremolo, trills are the next ones we can take up.

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