IR the genius

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Re: IR the genius

Post  ravinat on Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:40 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:Great series ravinat. Thoroughly enjoying it. Just a quick question here. Why do you say a talented musician stays out of controversy? What has that got to do with his musical talent? Or do you mean musical controversy? (like a Mari Mari Ninne which created an uproar) If you could clarify if your statement was for the character of the musician or the profession, it would be clearer to me.

DM

   Good question. It is just a personal observation that many talented musicians choose to stay away from controversy - VS/AR. They do not dare to challenge the traditional mindset. However, staying out of controversy does not make you talented. Or else, we are all super talented, aren't we?  Very Happy 

  The ability to see things differently from a traditional mindset is however a trait of a genius' mind. Perhaps a great scientific example, would be Feynman vs Einstein. While Feynman was a (the greatest physics teacher, in my view) great mind, he did not challenge the mindset of physicists of centuries.  He had his moments with Julian Schwinger and Hans Bethe, but that was not the same as what Einstein did.  Einstein could shake the thinking of centuries of physics by questioning the fixed nature of time in mechanics. It took a while for the world to come to grips with his thinking. The popular Eddington experiment, at least proved that light's path does get shifted around a strong gravitational field. (A small digression - if you want young minds to be excited by science, ask them to watch the BBC film 'Einstein and Eddington'). Einstein became a celebrity ever since, Eddington proved his theory. It took almost  a century of experimentation to prove the idea of slowing clocks (predicted in 1915 and proved in 2011). Even the Nobel committee took some of his insignificant work on photoelectric effect and rewarded him the prize in physics in 1921. The controversies around both special and general relativity theories had not died down and the Nobel committee did not want to get dragged into a subject that was challenging conventional wisdom so much.  Einstein is also an example of how geniuses do not last for ever. He got alienated from the world of theoretical physics by 1935 and at best served as an icon for the community than an active contributor.

 When we cover a bit more detail around the different kinds of geniuses, things will get more clear, I suppose.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  ravinat on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:28 pm

It must be admitted that ‘genius’ is a type of romanticism. Romanticism has its boundaries and limits. We may think that Aishwarya Rai is beautiful, but a western mind may not share the same view as they may not like the color of her hair. We cannot stand Aishwarya with a blonde hair. A future Indian generation may not be enamored by her looks. How many of us think about Madhubala today? Romanticism has also its limits with time.  Most geniuses in the world of arts or science were considered as folks of ‘radical’ ideas than geniuses. They are also looked upon as ‘nerds’, lacking social skills. There is a degree of insanity associated with a genius.  It is with time someone is finally accepted as a genius and it is with the passage of time, they are forgotten as well. 

Most of the geniuses we come across are what I call as ‘ordinary geniuses’. What is an ordinary genius? It is someone who is a 100 times better than you and I. We cannot be even 2 times better than ourselves.  For instance, Wagner (not the musician) observed and predicted that ocean currents were responsible for the seasons and climatic stability of our planet. He was able to see the connection between things that all of us have seen separately.  Most good music composers are very skilled or border on the ‘ordinary genius’, as they are 100 times better than the skilled musicians.  They are able to see connections within notes to create a body of music that is very pleasant to hear. 

Our focus is on extra-ordinary geniuses. What do these folks do? They define how something ought to look and change our entire understanding of what we already know.  They don’t stop at unraveling connections that we have not seen among things we have seen. Someone comes along and tells you that a western classical music idea can be applied to our folk music and you will ask him which asylum he came from. He also tells you that a very Indian classical song can be structured with Western choir arrangement.  Or a symphonic arrangement for an Indian classical song.  He tells you how classical Indian and Western choir can co-exist. He says how he can see Indian classical music within Western classical compositions. Or, how an erotic song like ‘Enulle Enulle’ can be quite meditative.  The visuals related to the song will be forgotten, but not the composition. He sees very clearly how music ‘ought’ to look (or hear) like. He is not about marginal improvements.  It’s like Feynman telling casually in a lecture in 1959, how there is so much room at the bottom and he could visualize the entire world of nano-technology when no one else even thought about it.  Feynman could so intimately understand quantum mechanics that he could predict the world of molecular engineering.  It is a discipline that is slightly less granular than his quantum world, but no one cared to think in those lines.  Sometimes, I wonder about Raja’s understanding of musical notes and their significance – his understanding is as atomic as Feynman’s quantum world that he could easily conceive higher forms that none of us can see. That’s what Raja is all about. 

We will finally cover a little bit more about extraordinary geniuses as well, how they are classified...

PS: this post was originally written when Aishwarya Rai really looked beautiful  Very Happy

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Nandri Ravinat!

Post  panniapurathar on Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:41 pm

Ravi avargale!  Just thanking you again for another great series of your posts.  Very insightful.  EAgerly looking forward to reading the rest.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:08 pm

counterpoint wrote:
kiru wrote:
On the genius topic as well, I completely agree with Suresh's picks  - IR and Ramanujam. Note, I brought in Chandra vis-a-vis Abdul Kalam.
Chandra is a fine example of systematic studying and professionalism - and one major contribution (Chandrashekar Limit) is probably not at the level ..
But as I am not a physicist and dont know his full contribution.. I would not vehemently argue that he is not a genius.

But you know everything about music and hence are in a position to fully evaluate IR's genius vis a vis, say a Salil or MSV or Anil Biswas or a G. Ramanathan?After all some of these guys have used western classical and harmony aspects in their songs long before IR did even if their emphasis was more on melody.
See,this is why I said earlier that this is tricky business. We loosely use the term genius based on somebody else throwing around the word in popular media and soon it ends up being matter-of-fact not something that was arrived at after profound scrutiny/analysis. Even musicians in our country use this term loosely to describe their favourite musician as if "genius" to them just meant somebody whose music they immensely liked. So if they like SDB songs a lot he is a "genius".,To some, RDB is a genius and an innovator par none. And so on. I wouldnt venture into this business too much because of above said limitations. Even the definitioin of genius sometimes varies depending on the source. And then the metrics. And then the knowledge(not just of music but a sense of history as well so that you can place accomplishments in proper context). It is not an easy job even for learned muscians leave alone a bunch of fans whiling away their time in discussion forums like this. what makes this even more tricky is that IR operated mostly in the unique genre of "Tamil film music" not in classical music or carnatic music or pure Jazz where there are atleast some established standards/metric to evaluate what is generally regarded as genius-level accomplishment.


1.  What Anil Biswas did and what Ilayaraja has done are hardly the same things and you know it well.  It cannot be argued that their work simply paved the way for what he was about to do because there are nearly three decades of separation.  In that much time, somebody should have thought of IR's pathbreaking ideas if they were so evidently workable.  Is it really necessary to underestimate what he has achieved just for the sake of political correctness, may I ask?

2.  Secondly, if some people use the word genius loosely, how does that still make Ilayaraja ineligible to called such or only as genius as other music directors?  I was a RDB fan, a SJ fan, a Rahman fan before I became a IR fan (although I would like to clarify here that I don't like to use the word fan, seeing as it has become associated with blind fanaticism and do so only out of necessity in this context).  I still am a fan of the other three music directors as well.  However, I simply do not see where any of them have attempted something like a Chinnamani Kuyile, to name just one brilliant song he composed for a rather crappy film.  Pl also read Ravi's posts. He has brought out exactly what I wanted to say, that Ilayaraja was prepared to risk going against conventional wisdom because he trusted his own instincts so much.  That is genius.  It is one thing to simply use Western elements as frills and entirely another to actually take the real McCoy and juxtapose it with Indian melody as if the twain were always destined to meet.  I think I have heard enough Western music to be able to say that with a degree of confidence.  If I have to consider RDB a genius comparable to IR, I must be at least offered arguments as to what equally earth shaking musical insight did he come up with.  It is not enough that some of his fans praise him in the highest superlatives.  So do Atif's fans, that's what fans are for.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  ravinat on Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:39 pm

Extraordinary geniuses can be classified in two ways: 1) Clever and 2) Magical 

In general, a genius mind sees things that talented did not even know existed. 

The 'clever' genius is one, where the talented can understand what they missed once the idea is explained. 

The 'magical' genius is one, where even the talented cannot understand what they missed even after it is explained.

Most inventive geniuses are 'clever'. Once explained, the talented ones can replicate the 'genius's' ideas. 

Magical genius is hard to replicate even for the 'talented' ones.

All geniuses are very original. The magical geniuses generally operate on first principles. This 'first principles' is not a buzzword but an extremely simple process that is very hard to practice. It is like starting off with a clean slate every time and coming out with the final picture. This takes enormous intellectual power.

As an example, Feynman, the American physics genius was exactly like that. Researchers would wait for a review from Dick for months and finally, when they got an opportunity, he would not let him/her state their problem in full. He would stop them half-way, once he understood what the problem was, and would start off with his own solution. In most circumstances, it turned out to be one of two things: 1) Feynman already solved the problem several years ago and did not bother to publish or 2) Feynman solved it to a different result that the researcher never imagined. Both these results makes the researcher look so small after months/years of effort. This is what I meant by 'working from first principles'. 

Those in computing would have heard of Von Neumann, the mathematician. Here is an interesting story of his inner working. He was known as a super fast mathematician but does not write his steps. A student stops him in the hallway and asks him for help on a problem. VN tells the answer. The student does not follow as he did not tell him the steps. He wants another solution. A few seconds later, VN tells him the same answer. When the student asked him what the difference was, all he says is, "I used two different methods as you were unhappy with my first one". He still did not tell him the steps! Sounds familiar?

Some of Raja's workings and thoughts are very similar. He has foredawn conclusions based on his own workings/experiments that it lands as a totally weird statement. Having said that, most recipients of this message are like the fellow researchers of Feynman. At least those guys knew physics - the interviewers hardly know music. That's what complicates matters.

Michael Faraday was a great British scientist who invented the dynamo. Once he explained how he saw the idea of an electromagnetic field can be mechanically disturbed to generate electricity, everyone understood and we do have commercial electricity as a result.  Faraday was clever.

My earlier example of Feynman showed what 'first principles' in practice mean. This is ridden with minefields that feeble minds do not attempt. What good a scientist are you if you are not familiar with others' work? That's however not a problem with minds like Einstein and Feynman. Einstein learned all about 3-d geometry after he conceived the idea of space-time continuum. He was himself not a great mathematician.

In my view, Raja has both traits.  The last of these posts will showcase both these traits of him...

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:53 pm

Ravi  applause Speechless!  Thoroughly engrossing, enlightening and inspirational. Hats off to your efforts.

CK, You almost spoke my mind in your posts. Very well put. Very sharp analysis and approach. Thank you the clap the clap

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Re: IR the genius

Post  ravinat on Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:27 pm

Time for some Raja examples...

Raja knew no Sanskrit when he came to Chennai. As a musician, Sanskrit chants are very appealing. My guess is, perhaps he developed a liking to the language due to his closeness to SPB (perfect Sanskrit from his dad is my theory of what makes SPB's diction in all languages perfect). 

Here is the talented mind using the Sanskrit chant as is, in Alaigal Oiyvathillai..(1982)



Here is the clever genius who takes the standard marriage Sanskrit chant and transforms it into Carnatic... Hear the song, 'Poo Mudithu' from 'En Purushan thaan Enakku Mattum thaan' (1988)



Observe the 'Mangalyam...' set to a different tune in the first interlude. Maybe, some other composer can take a cue and do this too once he/she has heard how Raja handled it.

The magical genius is seen in the track, 'Thendrale Kandu' from Nilave Mugam Kaatu (1998). Listen to the postlude. Raja sings 'Nave Vasasaankaleka..' when the female folk choral part overlaps singing 'Eramilla manasule'. This is hard to replicate. Sanskrit chants overlapping with a folk choir - no ordinary mind can think of this.



I think these three clips can clearly illustrate how Raja goes from talent to magical genius.. I am sure there are several other examples, one can think of...

I always wonder how a composer can make two different worlds co-exist so easily.
 For instance, if you hear the following songs as an example, and you hear only the pallavi and the charanams, nobody can predict the Western nature of the interludes: 1) Etho Mogam from Kozhi Koovudhu 2)  Nilavu Thoongum Neram from Kunkuma Chimizh 3) Thoorigai Indri from Ajantha 4) Nilavondru Kandaen en jannalil from Kai Rasi Karan 5) Unna Vida from Virumaandi. All these songs have simple Indian melodies. None of them give an ordinary composer any scope to try out Western musical ideas

Raja uses his interlude creativity so beautifully that you can stitch these 5 example tracks’s interludes and see that you are hearing a Brahms or Chopin or John Williams. The Raja of the Pallavi and charanams is very different from the Raja of the ludes. While Indian film requirements control the former Raja, the entire world cannot control the later Raja.  Etho Mogum ludes makes you think that you are experiencing a WCM composer who is trying his own version of 17th century baroque. Nilavu Thoongum Neram interludes takes you to the Bach world again with violins taking a cue from John Williams. Thoorigai Indri interludes makes you think that here is a modern synthesized version of Brahms. Nilavondru Kandaen’s prelude takes you on a trip of a genius trying out a little WCM experiment before jumping into an Indian melody that is good for the textbooks.  Unna Vida interludes shows you how 17th and 21st century WCM can co-exist within a Tamil folk song. There is simply nobody who can do these interludes the way he does it, anywhere in the world.  How he fuses these two different worlds is what makes him the musical genius that he is.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:15 am

VS: Most welcome, always a pleasure to talk about Raja.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:20 am

Ravi:  Great series of posts, once again.  Wonderful comparisons between music and science (where the word genius is used often).  It puts into perspective why IR often shrugs and points skywards when asked to explain how he can do what he does.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  counterpoint on Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:38 pm

fring151 wrote:

So Mani had constraints - sure I accept that. My simple question then is, in the movies he worked with IR (let's stick to those), what are the novelties in his approach to movie making that you can glean? Did he conjure up any unconventional plots or set up gripping dialogues? In my opinion, we wouldn't even be talking about Nayagan in this breath if Kamal hadn't essayed the lead role, which is not to say that makes it a great movie. Good is probably the most appropriate adjective here.
Much like how we wouldnt even be talking of Raging Bull or Taxi Driver if not for De Niro's performance? so what's your point? Part of good or great filmmaking includes eliciting a performance like that. Kamal has the tendency to go overboard now and then(even in Nayagan he does a bit) but Mani reigned him in sort of, and dictated the tone of Kamal's performance. The way he did the elder role in Nayagan is quite different form   the way he would have handled such roles earlier. As for what Mani did in mainstream cinema, oh well..it is all out there isnt it? There is even a  book on him out lately. So rather than typing a longwinded post I can save myself some trouble and link to an article by a film scholar that touches upon a  lot of points
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-features/tp-sundaymagazine/encountering-transitions/article4349435.ece

a sample point from the article:
"The characters in his films, especially women, possess a kind of brazenness associated with the upper-class urban educated. Without any support from her standard group of comrades, his heroines make the first move and take tempestuous decisions while courting and ascertaining their identities." He is talking about films like Mouna ragam

and another:
Quite a few critics have accused Mani Ratnam’s films as being superficial and even regressive in their world view. I see Mani Ratnam as someone who continues to struggle in order to give mainstream archetypes a human face, endowing them with individual characteristics. He is probably the only filmmaker who tries to create narrative depth through frail human characters, mostly as star-crossed lovers in the background of massive/realistic upheavals.

why do you think KR said that hie father gets "inspired" when working with directors like Mani? why do you think the music wad consistently good for Mani whereas for some other directors like say P.Vasu  it was hit-or
-miss at times? The way some of you guys frame your arguments it makes Mani look like yet another has-been who just lucked out in getting good music in film after film from IR with absolutely very little contribution from his side in terms of ideas/sinpiration. Nothing could be further off from the truth. In fact, even the tune reverse for nila adhu vanathu and thenpaandi seemayile was pushed by Mani.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:25 am

Oh, so what next, nobody has ever made frail human characters before?  OK, Tim Burton's Selina Kyle has more fragility and vulnerability than most Mani characters. Has the writer never watched Gulzar films?  Has he not seen the climactic scene of Mausam?  Sai Paranjpe, Kundan Shah, Shekar Kapur, did these directors not ever exist?  It's not my problem if people want to invent some narrative where Indian directors sucked bigtime till MR came along and rolled out the revolution but it's not true.  Even the idea of ends justifying means was already used, where else, in the Amitabh angry young man films.  The role of politicians in granting free passage to criminals or even of politicians themselves being criminals was explored very well in Nihalani's Ardh Satya.  And I might add that films like Ardh Satya were a lot darker and more relentless in their depiction of reality than MR's over simplified, diluted gloss.


There's meanwhile enough evidence that at least up to the end of the 80s, Ilayaraja could consistently churn out great music even working with directors who did not make even good films, let alone great.  I found Amman Kovil Kizhakaale maha blade but the music was outstanding.  I have not read good reviews of Ninaivellam Nithya as a film but the music again is exceptional.  However, the acolytes of MR have tried to twist history by pretending that it was MR who brought out the best from IR and there is no evidence of this.  It is possible that IR has also read such accounts in the media and found them irritating and hence allowed himself to say something a bit more caustic...I don't know.  But Ninaivellam Nithya is Exhibit A that he doesn't need a MR or KB to compose great music. 

You don't want to recognise that Ilayaraja is a composer who simply happens to have worked in the film music industry; you think he is just another music director.  He follows his instincts and gives free rein to wild musical explorations in contexts that don't necessarily demand it.  MR can push IR to switch songs for situations but it is IR who ultimately has to compose them.  MR can tell IR he wants a sad song for Mandram Vandha situation but he can't tell him to mix jazz, rock and Carnatic in unbelievable ways.  That was simply IR doing what he does best. There has never been a need for any such outrageous fusion in film music.  IR elevated the medium so that he could better explore his own potential and because these experiments also happened to be hits, directors and producers could not prevail on him to stick to something safe.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:48 am

Please try telling people who bore the brunt of the Mumbai underworld, surviving family members of the brave police officers who became victims of the politician-ganglord nexus that Vardhabhai was an angel.  And then come back and tell me about what a great film Nayakan was.  Mani at his reductive best, making heroes out of anybody and everybody.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:30 am

counterpoint wrote:
fring151 wrote:

So Mani had constraints - sure I accept that. My simple question then is, in the movies he worked with IR (let's stick to those), what are the novelties in his approach to movie making that you can glean? Did he conjure up any unconventional plots or set up gripping dialogues? In my opinion, we wouldn't even be talking about Nayagan in this breath if Kamal hadn't essayed the lead role, which is not to say that makes it a great movie. Good is probably the most appropriate adjective here.
Much like how we wouldnt even be talking of Raging Bull or Taxi Driver if not for De Niro's performance? so what's your point? Part of good or great filmmaking includes eliciting a performance like that. Kamal has the tendency to go overboard now and then(even in Nayagan he does a bit) but Mani reigned him in sort of, and dictated the tone of Kamal's performance. The way he did the elder role in Nayagan is quite different form   the way he would have handled such roles earlier. As for what Mani did in mainstream cinema, oh well..it is all out there isnt it? There is even a  book on him out lately. So rather than typing a longwinded post I can save myself some trouble and link to an article by a film scholar that touches upon a  lot of points
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-features/tp-sundaymagazine/encountering-transitions/article4349435.ece

a sample point from the article:
"The characters in his films, especially women, possess a kind of brazenness associated with the upper-class urban educated. Without any support from her standard group of comrades, his heroines make the first move and take tempestuous decisions while courting and ascertaining their identities." He is talking about films like Mouna ragam

and another:
Quite a few critics have accused Mani Ratnam’s films as being superficial and even regressive in their world view. I see Mani Ratnam as someone who continues to struggle in order to give mainstream archetypes a human face, endowing them with individual characteristics. He is probably the only filmmaker who tries to create narrative depth through frail human characters, mostly as star-crossed lovers in the background of massive/realistic upheavals.

why do you think KR said that hie father gets "inspired" when working with directors like Mani? why do you think the music wad consistently good for Mani whereas for some other directors like say P.Vasu  it was hit-or
-miss at times? The way some of you guys frame your arguments it makes Mani look like yet another has-been who just lucked out in getting good music in film after film from IR with absolutely very little contribution from his side in terms of ideas/sinpiration. Nothing could be further off from the truth. In fact, even the tune reverse for nila adhu vanathu and thenpaandi seemayile was pushed by Mani.

We are talking at cross-purposes here. You seem to be intent on establishing Mani's prowess as a mainstream director, a subject of debate which I have already made clear is singularly uninteresting to me. That said, I did make an attempt at reading that article you linked and blame it on my comprehension skills, but I had to give up mid-way. All the talk of Nehruvian socialism, political economy, Rajivian liberlaisation and seeking to draw tenuous connections with Mani's cinema comes across as somewhat pretentious actually.

Anyway, you do have a point on the music for Mani movies being consistently good, unlike for some other directors and that is simply because Mani is a better director than Thangar Bachan or P. Vasu, a point which I have never argued, let alone deny. BUT at the same time, to think Mani's work in Pagal nilavu inspired IR so much that he decided to experiment with vocal counterpoints in Poo maalaye is not particularly convincing, truth be told. Just like the suggestion that C Sridhar's cinematography and song setting spurred IR to compose Rojava thaalatum would sound a tad suspect even to most Sridhar fans (assuming they exist).

Finally, this did catch my eye

The characters in his films, especially women, possess a kind of brazenness associated with the upper-class urban educated. Without any support from her standard group of comrades, his heroines make the first move and take tempestuous decisions while courting and ascertaining their identities. Such feelings were heightened in the way Mani’s films encouraged both Ilayaraja and AR Rahman to extend themselves beyond the regional boundaries to embrace jazz, rap, hip-hop, techno-funk and even the gentle strains of Sufiana, while also exploring the entire technical spectrum of digital sound.

Typical revisionist propaganda only lackeys of Mani can come up with. IR's foray into jazz long precedes Mani's entry into movies.  And last time I checked, His hip-hop experimentation in Vikram had nothing to do with Ratnam.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:42 am

People need to make up their mind what is their real opinion on IR. If you accept the argument that IR was at his best in early 80s and faded away thereafter, you can't also say MR got the best out of him. The truth is regardless of constraints, IR has kept churning out genius, be it Kadal Meengal, Ninaivellam, Hey Ram or NEPV. He may not always come up with great music but I don't see any strong correlation between the director also IR's music. And to claim that MR got him to experiment is ridiculous.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:30 pm

Some random recollection of films where I don't even know who the directors were, but I never skipped any songs from these movies. This list is just upto mid 80s. Most of the films were duds, some may be hits, still the directors are mostly unknown. Either way there is nothing much from the story or the directors nspired Raja to come with stunning songs and scores. This does not mean the known directors like S P Muthuraman, ManivaNNan, R Sundarrajan, Bharathiraja, Manobala movies were good at the same time period. There were equally many many bad films.

archchanai pookkal
aaraathanai
aanandha raagam
echchil iravugaL
eera vizhi kaaviangaL
enakkaaga kaaththiru
kadal meengaL
karaiyellaam shenbagapoo
kOyil pura
thanikkaattu raaja
urangaatha ninaivugaL
bagavathipuram railway gate
kELviyum naane bathilum naanE
maganE maganE
mudivalla aarambam
nizhal thEdum nenjangaL
aanandha kummi
kaN sivanthaal maN sivakkum
malaragaL Nanaigindrana
raagangaL maaruvathillai
thanga magan
anbuLLa rajinikanth
kairaasikkaaran
kombEri mookkan
magudi
poo vilangu
dharma paththini
kaakki chattai
karimEdu karuvaayan
naanE raaja naanE manthiri

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:40 pm

Some more from 86-89 where I love all the songs and even some beautiful scores (since I have seen only few of them), but I don't even know the directors.

aruvadai naaL
december pookkaL
aalappiranthavan
iravu pookkaL
isai paadum thendral
kOdai mazhai
mandhira punnagai
maragatha veenai
aanand
chinnakkuyil paaduthu
ennai vittu pOgaathE
graamaththu minnal
irandil ondru
orE oru graamaththilE
oruvar vaazhum aalayam
raasaavE unnai nambi
therkaththi kaLLan
vaazhga vaLarga
anbuchchinnam
dhaayam onnu
en uyir kannamma
enna peththa raasa
poonthOtta kaavalkaaran
soora samhaaram
indran chandran
ninaivu chinnam
paandi naattu thangam
paattukku naan adimai
paattukku oru thalaivan
pagalil pournami
pongi varum kaavEri
siva

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:42 pm

The only Ramaraj film I dared to watch fully (because it was the first time and no other reason!) was Pongi Varum Kaveri.  Film was bandal imo, but I have never forgotten Velli Kolusu Mani thereafter.  It can only happen to IR that he is simultaneously criticised for 'wasting' great songs in, say, Ramaraj films and also said to have heavily depended on Mani, Balachander and Vairamuthu...even though, as is clear to see, the two statements are contradictory.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:43 pm

Ah! Coincidentally you also mentioned Pongi Varum Kaveri.  Anand was another maha-blade tragedy.  And again, what music!  Thodatha Thaalam esp is chanceless.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:55 pm

Films from 90-94 where the same case applies. How did Raja get inspire in all of these films. Please note I have even skipped films from Rajkiran, Gangai Amaran, Santhana bharthy,  K S Ravikumar, R.V Udayakumar and the first timers that time who became popular afterwards. Please figure out the directors if we can, not by browsing Smile

amman kOvil thiruvizha
athisaya piravi
eeramaana rOjaavE
maruthu paandi
mounam sammatham
periya veettu pannakkaaran
puthiya raagam
sirayil pooththa chinna malar
siraiyil sila raagangaL
unnai solli kutramillai
brahmma
chinna thaayi
en raasaavin manasilE
oorellaam un paattu
paandithurai
thaayamma
thaalattu kEkkuthamma
thanga manasukkaaran
unnai vaazhthi paadugirEn
barathan
chinna pasanga naanga
deiva vaakku
enga thambi
innisai mazhai
maamiyaar veedu
manikkuyil
naadOdi paattukkaaran
raakkaayi kOyil
thendral varum theru
unnai nenachchEn paattu padicchchEn
chinna Devan
dharma seelan
enga muthalaali
I Love India
kalaingan
pon vilangu
sakkarai thEvan
uththama raasa
adharmam
honest raj
mOhamuL
muthukkaaLai
paattu paada vaa
periya maruthu
priyanka
puthupatti ponnuthaayi

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Re: IR the genius

Post  Nerd on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:00 pm

I just learnt that Velli Kolusu Mani is from PVK. What do you 'll say to this?  Very Happy  And I am sure I am not the only one and this is not the only Raaja song.
 
Btw, the only point Counterpoint has is, (as fring acknowledged) songs in Mani saar's films have been consistently good. I have two theories:
 
1. Everybody will like this. Mani is obviously a better director and the situations in his films are far more interesting than what a PVasu can come up with. Same applies to other masters like Mahendran or a KB or the more recent Balas and Mysskins. But that does not mean that they are at Raaja's level. They are the best in their level. If Raaja's genius is 1000, Mani would have probably got a 100 out of him while the likes of PV etc will hit an odd 100 but their average is around 50. Now why I say Raaja's genius is 1000, there are plenty of Ninaivellaam Nithayas and the Thiruvaasagams and the How to name it's and the 20,000 ludes he has composed which came without any inspiration / input from the director. He did not have to dumb them down too. BGM - one could argue that the scenes inspired him, so I don't want to mention it.
 
2. Mani's songs are good because the films were hits or were liked by many. Now Eeravizhi Kaaviyangal had better songs than say Naayagan (arguable, but one can't categorically deny my claim). If EVK was directed by Mani or a KB, even those songs would have been extremely popular and well remembered this date. So yes, Raaja needs the director, the actor etc. to give a hit song. And again that's not a requirement but a 'nice-to-have'.


Last edited by Nerd on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:02 pm

Films during 95-99. Every song is pure gold while most of the films were duds.
chandralekha
maayabazaar
naattuppura paatu
raasaiyya
thEdi vantha raasa
kattapanchaayaththu
irattai rOja
poomani
poovarasan
kaadhal rOjaavE
karuvElam pookkaL
kizakkum mErkkum
aNNan
dharma
poonthOttam
senthooram
thalaimurai
thodarum
anthapuram
chinna durai
bharani
nilavE mugam kaattu
thirunelvEli
Time

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:09 pm

Nerd, even I had to check which film Velli Kolusu Mani was from to type my comment now.  I only remembered that the song was picturised on Ramaraj and from the only Ramaraj film I had ever watched.  

About MR, I do agree he is a good director and nor have I said anything to the contrary.  I don't think he is a 'great' director - my opinion and people may feel free to disagree - and not a genius of the stature of Ilayaraja.  So while I get counterpoint's point, it does not really support a stance that somebody like MR is on the same level as IR.  Yes, it definitely helps when IR's songs are featured in hit films for these songs to be remembered afterwards.  But that imo has nothing to do with the musical quality of the songs.  Your mention of Eeravizhi Kaaviyangal is a good counter-example.  Likewise, Meendum Oru Kathal Kaalai has the great duet Adhikalai Nerame but I don't the film is remembered well, if at all it is remembered.  Who remembers much about Naan Paadum Paadal as a film, and yet so many great tracks.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  V_S on Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:12 pm

2000-2014 films. Left out Bala, Prakash Raj, Gautham Menon, A. R Murugadoss, Thangar Bachchan, Suseendran, Myskkin who were new comers to Raja that time. Also this list does not include other language films and directors which is another big list we have. What about his non-film albums?

bharathi
karisakaattu poovE
kaasi
en mana vaanil
konji pEsalam
manasellaam
karagaattakkaari
madhu
uliyin Osai
azhagar malai
vaalmiki
sengaathu bhoomiyilE
thaandavakOnE
mayilu
megha

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:56 am

I haven't even heard of most of the movies you have listed though I am pretty sure I'll know at least a couple of songs from many of them.

Nerd wrote:Mani is obviously a better director and the situations in his films are far more interesting than what a PVasu can come up with.

Ya, that was what I meant when I said Mani is obviously a better director than a lot of these others and his movie making aesthetics presumably motivated and/or inspired IR to deliver the goods more often than working with a Rajkiran did.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  Usha on Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:57 am

Nerd and Fring,

  Mani rathnam.. first movie.. Idhaya kovil..  kadhaiyum ilai. situation um ilai.. Raja is the Hero of the film.......

enga yaruku endru parthalum...   aramba kala Directors.. yarukum.. IR dhan Hero vaga irundhu  hit koduthu irukar........

padathaiyum oda vaithu irukirar.............

adharku apparam dhan.....Director's  improvements...............  apadi indha IR... yar endru parkamal... isaiyai thandha
oru kadavul............  adhu dhan avarudaiya Special..... adhanal dhan avar Genius.......

Infact.. kuppai padathuku... Great Music koduthu.. apadiyavadhu padam odatum endru.. kuppai padathuku than...
avarudaiya special skils ellam koduthu irupar..... Indru varai...........

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