IR the genius

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Re: IR the genius

Post  counterpoint on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:37 pm

fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote:That's the thing I don't get...AT ALL.  If one is not qualified to evaluate genius, how is same person somehow qualified to judge whether a music director's statement on who was or wasn't at his level is justified?  At the most, it can be said IR's statement was not very politically correct, but that's hardly surprising coming from him.  It is not particularly modest but no surprises there either.  But how exactly is it supposed to be way off the mark or such and how does one get special licence to evaluate that in isolation? 
 NyAyamAna kELvi. Counterpoint, can we expect a STRAIGHT answer to this STRAIGHT question from you? Or will you again stonewall and use diversionary tactics?

I didn't want to continue this as this is getting into more of personal attacks from hyper-charged fans than any reasonable discussion but I'll respond to this and then stop. What I passed was a comment, my own observation or thought or whatever you want to call it, a very subjective one at that(needless to say but still) on IR's comment. Yes, I found it a bit offhand, a touch unreasonable and even self-contradictory a bit, since IR had praised the directors in question earlier in other instances(although in measured tones). I don't need to be a musicologist to pass this comment or to find some comment IR made a tad offensive. But to stamp somebody as a certified genius? There is quite a bit of objectivity, some technical rigour in analysis needed there. It is not all just opinions. And to stamp somebody as an even bigger genius than his counterparts in other fields? That requires technical rigour in analysis in two different art forms and an acceptable way of comparing both somehow. what is "genius" at IR's level in the context of mainstream Tamil cinema for film directors? The question itself sounds absurd. Thats why I stopped discussing that further.If you think stamping somebody as a genius is completely subjective and it is just an adjective that you use to brand somebody you like a lot then we'll leave it at that
In all this, what is forgotten is that IR himself didnt use the genius label. He was just talking about extracting good work from him. And for those who keep coming up with lone instances of great songs for other directors, I;ll say that I never denied that IR wasn't capable of inspiring himself to compose such songs for mediocre films/directors. But those would be intermittent instances. If he lavished a Mannan on P.Vasu he also punished P.Vasu with a Saadhu later on, a horrendous soundtrack. But for these directors in question(and not just Mani) the work was consistently good and inspiring. Shows that there was something about them which inspired him and pushed him to do better work amidst the run-of-the-mill soundtracks. what else did he expect from mainstream Tamil cinema filmmakers?

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Re: IR the genius

Post  counterpoint on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:00 pm

kiru wrote:

Seriously Dear Sir, can you be a little bit more honest with us .. you resent that many of us consider him a genius . you resent the fact Mani Ratnam is being denigrated. .

Kiru, wrong on both counts. I don't resent, I merely disagree and differ. I am just challenging that notion.There is a difference. On Mani, I dont resent anything. I merely presented critique by more established critics in that field who consider his work significant enough to discuss. THat doesnt mean Iam a flag bearing fanboy of Mani. I mentioned KB as well. Did you miss that? Or Balu Mahendra.

kiru wrote:

You deny IR is a genius
but you are not ready to defend your case but evade the issue with references to TM Krishna and WCM Professor finding faults with part-writing. Can you please argue directly ? Instead of this shadow war.
Just say IR is not a genius because of Please, do not pass of some pseudo humility here but at the same time making references to critical remarks on his music by others.

Again wrong on your part. I clearly said I am not qualified enough to certify whether he is a genius or not. So how does that translate to denying that IR is a genius? It merely means that I wouldn't know. I pointed to those critiques of TM krishna and that other critique of HTNI(sorry, not able to find a link, maybe it was circulated in a private chat/email and not published on web, I have to jog my memory, it was more than a decade back. ) not to make a point that IR is not a genius, but just to show to others here that what is genius to some here might not be seen the same way by others more qualified in their fields. So allow for that dissent. And acknowledge that just because something wows you it doesn't have to wow established musicians/musicologists. A song in 3 notes can be considered as genius by somebody here and somebody might throw it at me and ask me what now? But someone else, a classical musician might consider it as a mere note juggling exercise without enough depth.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  jaiganesh on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:32 pm

Ok counterpoint.. I am a WCM expert from nottingham. I have done extreme research in Carnatic Ragas - I anoint Raaja as a genius.. Oh BTW you are looking for someone who is not a Raaja fan to say the same right?
well probably this is not the forum where you will find any. So go somewhere and sell your "no one can certify someone is a genius" medicine...

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:50 pm

I wouldn't respond either, but I hate twisting of statements. I also despise strawmen
If you think stamping somebody as a genius is completely subjective and it is just an adjective that you use to brand somebody you like a lot then we'll leave it at that

That is NOT what I have said all along. Go back and read my posts. Sorry, I can't be bothered to copy paste it again for you.

A song in 3 notes can be considered as genius by somebody here and somebody might throw it at me and ask me what now? But someone else, a classical musician might consider it as a mere note juggling exercise without enough depth.

That's a strawman if I have ever seen one. Why do you repeatedly keep peddling that? No one here has ever suggested, anywhere here that IR is a genius because he composed a song in 3 notes. So try again to refute the arguments that HAVE been presented for why IR is a genius, IF you are interested in the discussion.

P.S: I am not hypercharged because I am an IR fan, I get hypercharged by stonewalling in general, no matter the topic at hand.

P.P.S: Apart from that, the rest of your rant was you just recycled matter from your previous rants.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:00 am

I also wonder why this behaviour is so typical of all you "neutral", "mature" fans. Say something provocative and controversial, refuse to address direct and pointed rebuttals to these assertions and instead keep repeating the same vague, general statements in responses, take shelter in others "experts" opinions, continue with vague, general dismissals and and when you get called out for this, play the victim and declare "You are all emotional, aggressive fans who can't think rationally".

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:47 pm

And for those who keep coming up with lone instances of great songs for other directors, I;ll say that I never denied that IR wasn't capable of inspiring himself to compose such songs for mediocre films/directors. But those would be intermittent instances. If he lavished a Mannan on P.Vasu he also punished P.Vasu with a Saadhu later on, a horrendous soundtrack. But for these directors in question(and not just Mani) the work was consistently good and inspiring.


--  I think at least I already agreed up to a point on this.  I also drew a somewhat different interpretation from it that was less generous to the likes of MR - crediting them only for not making such bad films that the maestro felt demotivated and delivered a by the numbers soundtrack and not for pushing him to discover the genius within him as I do not believe Ilayaraja needed any director to help him find out how well he could compose.  We will have to agree to disagree on that; you can't force your opinion down my throat and pretend you are right about it.  


However, my point pertained to the author Hariharan's outrageous claim that Mani pushed IR to explore genres like jazz.  That I continue to call rubbish and that is where I cited examples like Endrendrum Anandhame.  It is pure drivel to suggest IR's attempts to explore the boundaries of Indo-Western synthesis had anything to do with which director he was working.  It was an independent path of experimentation that he followed of his own volition and songs like Endrendrum Anadhame clearly establish that.   That song alone is far bolder in what it attempts conceptually than any song he composed for a Mani Ratnam film and it also presents his experimentation in a much more in your face, uninhibited form.  So IR's experimentation did not depend on Mani arriving on the scene, it was his self derived creative impetus.  To deny that would be, as fring said, to attempt too hard to appear neutral, to the extent of denying Ilayaraja credit for his own boldness and audacity in attempting things which were not at all within the conventional requirements and parameters of film music.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:21 pm

counterpoint wrote:And for those who keep coming up with lone instances of great songs for other directors, I;ll say that I never denied that IR wasn't capable of inspiring himself to compose such songs for mediocre films/directors. But those would be intermittent instances.

Oh, I missed that! So when V_S gives a list of dozens of movies that were eminently forgettable but had great evergreen music, you brush it aside as a strawman and when someone specifically cites Ninaivellam nithya or Kadal meengal, they now become intermittent instances? How convenient. Do you happen to be a journalist or a party spokesperson by any chance?

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Re: IR the genius

Post  jaiganesh on Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm

Typical famished attempt to equate a self made genius like Raaja to a created synthetic entity who cannot deliver if there is no big banner or big director setting the stage ..

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Re: IR the genius

Post  kiru on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:52 pm

jaiganesh wrote:Typical famished attempt to equate a self made genius like Raaja to a created synthetic entity who cannot deliver if there is no big banner or big director setting the stage ..


IR may not be a genius .. but that does not make me sad at all. But it is the desperate attempts to prove he is not a genius that makes me really sad !!!
@Jai - I came back tired from a trip to Chicago last night .. but had a good laugh when I saw your Nottingham post :-)

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Re: IR the genius

Post  kiru on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:54 pm

app_engine wrote:
ravinat wrote: Why can't we create a separate thread where we try to make recommendations for WCM terms?

Done Smile

http://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t201-developing-thamizh-terminlogy-for-western-and-non-thamizh-forms-of-music

@app - you are a man of action - just do it - philosophy :-)
@Ravi - great idea (I used to do some thing like this (but not much :-( ) as part of the Tamil Manram @CEG Guindy, when VC Kulandaiswamy was the vice-chancelor of Anna University)

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Re: IR the genius

Post  fring151 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:12 am

*Digression*

CK, as you have asked more than once and CP has not shared any extracts from BR's book, you may read this old blogpost to understand why Mani Ratnam is a genius and Agni Natchathiram is a masterpiece and the most irreverent, subversive piece of movie-making since Clockwork orange.

http://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2007/02/10/mani-ratnam-madras-male/

P.S: It's also a masterclass in objective analysis of art without letting your fandom, gender, personal bias and geographical coordinates or nostalgia colour your views. IR fans here could learn a thing or two from this.

*End Dig*

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Re: IR the genius

Post  crimson king on Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:04 pm

Didn't know one could infer so much into a pretty mundane film. It was very interesting to read though I couldn't disagree more.

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Re: IR the genius

Post  SenthilVinu on Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:57 am

crimson king wrote:Didn't know one could infer so much into a pretty mundane film. It was very interesting to read though I couldn't disagree more.

+1

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Re: IR the genius

Post  kiru on Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:43 pm

crimson king wrote:Didn't know one could infer so much into a pretty mundane film. It was very interesting to read though I couldn't disagree more.
I could not get past the first paragraph.. teenage drivel while in the 30s .. so much for maturity..

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