IR the genius

well maybe Danny Boyle is more qualified than Mani Rathnam, he has called Rahman a genius :-)
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/a-r-rahman-is-a-genius-slumdog-director/82576-8.html

That is just one instance, Iam sure I'll find many more if I dig around, especially with respect to MSV or Rahman besides IR.

Goes to show  within film circles how the G word is loosely bandied about(even Hollywood is not an exception) and unfortunately the fanbase latches on to it

Fring, you keep missing my point. I said very clearly that I wont be pulled much into this genius business. I can  find quotes by musicians who talk of MSV or Rahman in similiar terms as well and also based on TV interviews and such. So those dont mean much. Here is another article where musicians including Ramesh Vinayagam talk about MSV's genius
http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/film-music-down-the-ages/article2998246.ece
so is MSV a genius? I do not know.Maybe. There are more out there if you dig

And Iam not going to respond to anybody else's dissection of IR's music and their conclusion as to why he is a genius, because that is their subjective opinion in the end. what startles or surprises or sounds intellectual to them need'nt be the same way for somebody else. The TM Krishna book is an example. Before his book many fanboys would have thoughtof IR's carnatic compositions as "genius"-level whereas TMK dismisses them as merely traversing the scale without exploring the raga in depth. I have also read honest biting reviews of How to name it before(tryin to find the link) by a western classical music professor who pointed out mistakes in part-writing and opined that IR didnt develop themes systematically and kept jumping. So, both from carnatic as well as western classical worlds there have been people who have had differing opinions. Again, does this all mean that IR is not a genius? I dont know. Iam wise(or prudent) enough to realize that Iam not qualified enough to make a call. Like they say, the more you get to know about music, the more you realize how much you dont know. Iam of that school of thought and hence wont make any judgements here. Merely pointing out differing options on IR's art.

Also, this discussion is not about my acknowledgement of IR's genius or my defense of Mani's supposed genius. I have never argued anywhere that Mani is a genius, so why do you keep bringing that up? This discussion is about  IR's offhand remark on directors not rising to his level to extract work(that comment itself is absurd, what does he mean by "his level"? and how does that level translate to film direction). Let IR define what he means by the equivalent of "his level" in film direction in the world of mainstream Tamil cinema and then there will be atleast something merit-worthy about that comment. Let im elaborate what more he expected out of  amainstream Tamil film director than the ones I have listed. Until then, it was just a comment said on a  whim without much thought and possibly out of annoyance. Especially when IR himself has acknowledged several directors with giving him fodder or pushing him to come up with innovative or experimental work. For instance, I mentioned KB too(in the context of Sindhu Bhairavi). And even Balu Mahendra in some of my posts. That's the most a director can do within the constraints of mainstream Tamil cinema which IR was operating in too. He wasnt exactly working with the Satyajit Rays or the Addor Gopalakrishnans of the world. Not that working with them would have automatically generated genius-level music. what inspires a MD is difficult to predict or rationalize. A situation for a song like that in sundari kannaal oru seidhi for instance may inspire a MD much more than any scene in one those Ray's films. After all, even in Tamil cinema there was the BGM part where IR was free to explore whatever he wanted and no director could have stopped him if he wishes to. Most of Mani's or KB's or BM's films have memorable BGM as well. what more did IR expect?

But you guys seem to have latched onto Mani Rathnam alone and are hellbent on converting this into a "Mani is a not  a genius wheres IR is" type of discussion which I am not interested in. My arguments holds for any acclaimed director who has consistently gotten good to great music in their films, which includes but is not limited to Mani.

"so that indicates strongly that you are not interested in a real discussion and are content with passing off your own opinions as facts ("It doesnt have to become the truth. It is truth lready.")"

It is not an opinion. Like I said earlier how many here can analyze with rigour, the ins and outs of compositions, come up with metrics for measuring :genius" in composition and then somehow do the same for film direction as well? Right,Nobody. Not even qualified critics. Because a lot of them are well versed in either music or films but not both. And a lot of the time they peddle their opinions as facts as well. what seems intellectual to them might not be all that intellectual to even an amateur student of music in that field. IR's 3-note tune experiment might be genius level to some. They might question , like you do,as to whether MSV or anybody else has attempted a song in 3 notes? No? So, IR is an unqualified genius. whereas, If you ask TM Krishna, he might dismiss it as a note-juggling exercise. I see the futility of it all, hence Iam not indulging in all this. Even amongst well respected critics I see a lot of disagreement sometimes and  a lack of consensus on what constitutes special art or genius. Now both film music composition and film direction are not standalone exercises(especially the latter). They require  mutual collaboration, inspiration and are in the services of each other. Which makes this whole evaluation business even tricky.

counterpoint wrote:..
Again, does this all mean that IR is not a genius? I dont know. Iam wise(or prudent) enough to realize that Iam not qualified enough to make a call. Like they say, the more you get to know about music, the more you realize how much you dont know. Iam of that school of thought and hence wont make any judgements here. Merely pointing out differing options on IR's art.
...i.

Seriously Dear Sir, can you be a little bit more honest with us .. you resent that many of us consider him a genius . you resent the fact Mani Ratnam is being denigrated. You deny IR is a genius but you are not ready to defend your case but evade the issue with references to TM Krishna and WCM Professor finding faults with part-writing. Can you please argue directly ? Instead of this shadow war.
Just say IR is not a genius because of <insert your points> Please, do not pass of some pseudo humility here but at the same time making references to critical remarks on his music by others. By your own admittance you are not qualified to evaluate at the 'genius' level .. I am sure many of us here are also at that level. So we have a level playing field .. let the game begin.

Counterpoint,

You have made your point (many times over) regarding your disinterest in the genius business and my previous post made it quite clear that this business is not a scientifically precise one in any case, so your producing articles on why MSV or ARR is a genius  serves precisely no purpose, so there's no explanation for why you had to bring it up now other than to stonewall. I think it's time for you to abort from the genius discussion and allow the others to talk about it while resisting the itch to butt in everytime and keep saying the same thing over and over again. And in return I promise we'll keep reminding ourselves of your point about the futility of it all. Deal?

counterpoint wrote:Fring, you keep missing my point.

At least I keep missing only your point. You keep missing everyone's. And the punch dialogue aside, even this is not true. I get exactly what you have been arguing and I have addressed all your points in previous responses which you either haven't bothered to read or have chosen to deliberately ignore . And not just me, others have also made many points arguing why there was nothing wrong in what IR said but again, evidently you can't be bothered and consider your own opinions more sacrosanct than everyone else's, including IR's. I addressed the genius point in detail in my previous post only in the hope that it would stop you from driving us up the wall with the "Tricky business, different worlds, no one qualified to evaluate" line of stonewalling, but alas, it hasn't worked. 

counterpoint wrote:I have also read honest biting reviews of How to name it before(tryin to find the link) by a western classical music professor who pointed out mistakes in part-writing and opined that IR didnt develop themes systematically and kept jumping.

Thanks for pointing out art is subjective, Captain obvious. symphony: 

counterpoint wrote:After all, even in Tamil cinema there was the BGM part where IR was free to explore whatever he wanted and no director could have stopped him if he wishes to. Most of Mani's or KB's or BM's films have memorable BGM as well. what more did IR expect? 

That's an unintended self-goal. You just acknowledged IR explored whatever he wanted to irrespective of the banality of the situations.

Now what, taking exquisite BGM parts for granted?  So was IR like the first music director ever to get full rein in BGM?  Or simply one who forged a completely different path because he could?

kiru wrote:

counterpoint wrote:..
Again, does this all mean that IR is not a genius? I dont know. Iam wise(or prudent) enough to realize that Iam not qualified enough to make a call. Like they say, the more you get to know about music, the more you realize how much you dont know. Iam of that school of thought and hence wont make any judgements here. Merely pointing out differing options on IR's art.
...i.

Seriously Dear Sir, can you be a little bit more honest with us .. you resent that many of us consider him a genius . you resent the fact Mani Ratnam is being denigrated. You deny IR is a genius but you are not ready to defend your case but evade the issue with references to TM Krishna and WCM Professor finding faults with part-writing. Can you please argue directly ? Instead of this shadow war.
Just say IR is not a genius because of  <insert your points>  Please, do not pass of some pseudo humility here but at the same time making references to critical remarks on his music by others. By your own admittance you are not qualified to evaluate at the 'genius' level .. I am sure many of us here are also at that level. So we have a level playing field .. let the game begin.

Oh no, Kiru, please don't give him another opportunity to go on and on about how and why he is not into this genius business at all, bringing in all sorts of irrelevant articles, opinions and examples to support his stance. There counterpoint, I saved both Kiru and you some time. You don't have to write another lengthy post saying why you are not into this genius business but are only trying to point out that IR was not right in saying no director rose to his level. Cheers.

That's the thing I don't get...AT ALL.  If one is not qualified to evaluate genius, how is same person somehow qualified to judge whether a music director's statement on who was or wasn't at his level is justified?  At the most, it can be said IR's statement was not very politically correct, but that's hardly surprising coming from him.  It is not particularly modest but no surprises there either.  But how exactly is it supposed to be way off the mark or such and how does one get special licence to evaluate that in isolation?  In which CGO in Delhi can I get said licence, please?  

Stands to reason you have to make your own 'indirect' evaluation of the directors and Ilayaraja otherwise you wouldn't be able to contest his statement in the first place.  And that you are not allowed to...or are you?

crimson king wrote:That's the thing I don't get...AT ALL.  If one is not qualified to evaluate genius, how is same person somehow qualified to judge whether a music director's statement on who was or wasn't at his level is justified?  At the most, it can be said IR's statement was not very politically correct, but that's hardly surprising coming from him.  It is not particularly modest but no surprises there either.  But how exactly is it supposed to be way off the mark or such and how does one get special licence to evaluate that in isolation? 

 NyAyamAna kELvi. Counterpoint, can we expect a STRAIGHT answer to this STRAIGHT question from you? Or will you again stonewall and use diversionary tactics?

Ilayaraja=Sangar Ganes=sabesh murali=Ar rahman=msv=kvm=vkumar=dimman=sriramparasuram=rparthasarathy"

Because all of them gave hit albums, if you call one of them a genius, you should call everyone else a genius. Who are you guys to differentiate/discriminate between their outputs? What do you know about music to differentiate? All of them God only gave talent. ellA pugazhum iRaivanukkE.

So God is the only genius because "Only God can judge me/him/anyone else"

BTW I am humble enough to realise this, You guys aren't. Only I am humble. Only I am wise. I am the only person who is sane here. YOu are all boot licking fans.
When will you guys learn?

*lalala lala lalala lala lala la*
I forgot - SA Rajkumar is also genius

அலோ பேசிக்கலி நார்த் இண்டியன், 
நம்ப டொண்டி ருப்பீஸ் மறந்துடாதீங்க (கேரிசு செயராசுக்குட்டி)!
 

counterpoint wrote:

So lets recalibrate. Mani isnt a genius in directing like Raaja is in music. An equivalent genius in the field of direction would be either Satyajit Ray or MartinScorcese. Happy?

Again, your opinion, right? Backed up by..? what is your pedigree when it comes to critiquing film direction and music? These are two vastly different artforms and each one is an ocean in itself.

And IR did not say "Iam a bigger genius than any film director in Tamil". So Iam not sure where this genius business came from all off a sudden. He didnt bring any of his non-TFM works as proof of his composing prowess. All he is talking about is, within the constraints of commercial cinema. And my opinion here, within the commercial cinema constraints(which IR willingly operated under) there were atleast a  couple of directors if not more who pushed the medium with their narrative style/ideas and managed to push IR as well, liberating him from working with the likes of P. Vasu or Ameer Jaan or Ramarajan in 30 films every year. IR himself has acknowledged that in the past. He said if KB hadnt come up with situations like that in Sindhubhairavi it would not have been possible for him to come up with experimental stuff like Kalaivaaniye or Mari mari ninne in films. So in a way he acknowledged that KB pushed him.

OK Raaja has time and again mentioned that he is a bigger genius than any film director in tamil. not once but many times. Even recently he mentioned that he had to stoop down to their level.
and raaja is not under any shackles. Even for PVasu he weilds the same Kalyani and applies his prism to render it in a new color. Mani never unshackled Raaja. If Mani had "Raaja raajadhi rajanindha", then some 
obscure director had "vel muruganukku" - his professionalism is supreme so dont even imagine that Mani and KB have levelled Raaja's genius and extracted something that he hasnt done or wouldnt have done.
When he credited KB, he was merely appreciating the fact that KB approached the subject of music with some aesthetic appreciation compared to the rest of the pack thats all.and when he mentions the mari mari ninne - it was his call - KB had contracted a telugu lyricist who was in the ambassadoor car waiting for an inspirational moment to happen. Kalaivaaniye aarohanam idea was also his response to the situation when KB said it is a comeback for JKB - so again you dint read the fine print properly.

I find Counterpoint's choice of words amusing. "IR was liberated from...".   

Also "honest, biting reviews by wcm prof....". LOL. Honest because it was biting? Or because the wcm prof's integrity and knowledge of the many non-wcm musical  forms explored in HTNI is impeccable- and you are somehow qualified enough to certify this? And you are also accomplished and competent enough in wcm to declare the review honest? Or is it because it serves your purpose here to stonewall and put sappakattu? I reckon it is the latter. At least the rest of us don't pretend to be all humble and non-judgmental here, you on the one hand are loathe to engage in any subjective assessment of IR's "genius" here dismissing everyone as unqualified to even have an opinion on the matter, and on the other, have no qualms in certifying another subjective 3rd party opinion as honest. Seriously, the logical inconsistencies and intellectual dishonesty you exhibit make me laugh. LOL. 

To my knowledge, this is one place where HTNI is disliked:
http://contrarianworld.blogspot.com/2013/06/ilayarajas-how-to-name-itperils-of.html

I don't remember reading any other "WCM professor" kadichchifying it...if there's one, please amuse me with the link

BTW, to understand the writer of the above blog, one should briefly browse around his posts on various topics

jaiganesh wrote:OK Raaja has time and again mentioned that he is a bigger genius than any film director in tamil.

You are wading into dangerous territory here. Do you really wish to see a few more pages of "I am not into genius business, tricky business, no one qualified, why do you bring it up"? He is evidently traumatised by the *G word*, so let me fix that. IR has at several times indicated that directors didn't match up to him. One  instance is the NEPV audio launch where while talking about Oru poongAvanam he rather sarcastically commented on how directors would mostly come with some "fixed situation" and it was up to him to try something creative within that. Another instance is the interview to the Marathi composer way back in the late 80s where he cites the filmmaking in Amaedus (very much a mainstream movie) and laments about our directors wondering when they would ever be as perceptive. So it is not an isolated off-hand remark.  *Checking to see I haven't by mistake used the word <g word> in the above para. Ook, passed*

fring151 wrote:

jaiganesh wrote:OK Raaja has time and again mentioned that he is a bigger genius than any film director in tamil.

You are wading into dangerous territory here. Do you really wish to see a few more pages of "I am not into genius business, tricky business, no one qualified, why do you bring it up"? He is evidently traumatised by the *G word*, so let me fix that. IR has at several times indicated that directors didn't match up to him. One  instance is the NEPV audio launch where while talking about Oru poongAvanam he rather sarcastically commented on how directors would mostly come with some "fixed situation" and it was up to him to try something creative within that. Another instance is the interview to the Marathi composer way back in the late 80s where he cites the filmmaking in Amaedus (very much a mainstream movie) and laments about our directors wondering when they would ever be as perceptive. So it is not an isolated off-hand remark.  *Checking to see I haven't by mistake used the word <g word> in the above para. Ook, passed*

@Fring - even I dont care whether IR is a genius or not. I dont think I openly praised or called him a genius myself in more than 20 years of forumming. But I responded like that earlier because those posts sounded like hatred posts. If you are good/knowledgeable you would go around praising who ever is good, not pulling down people whom you consider are bad .. I guess they call it the POSITIVE attitude :-) Unfortunately , God has not bestowed it on some people and/or some people choose to throw that gift away..

It's seriously like banging the head against a wall.  How many times does one have to cite the example of Kadal Meengal to show that this whole concept of directors liberating IR is nonsense.  In fact the very reason so many of them missed no chance to spew vitriol on him through the backdoor was, as he himself mentioned not so subtly in this interview, because he stuck out on his own and went way beyond the brief of the director.  No, I don't have taped extracts of IR-director convos, but the picturisations bear testimony to what I said.  And news flash here (for Mr.CP), not only the question of genius, any and all discussion on art is subjective. So either we can just shut down this forum and stop discussing at all or we can learn to respect each other's space and disagree without resorting to wanton ad hominems.

crimson king wrote:It's seriously like banging the head against a wall.  How many times does one have to cite the example of Kadal Meengal to show that this whole concept of directors liberating IR is nonsense.  In fact the very reason so many of them missed no chance to spew vitriol on him through the backdoor was, as he himself mentioned not so subtly in this interview, because he stuck out on his own and went way beyond the brief of the director.  No, I don't have taped extracts of IR-director convos, but the picturisations bear testimony to what I said.  And news flash here (for Mr.CP), not only the question of genius, any and all discussion on art is subjective. So either we can just shut down this forum and stop discussing at all or we can learn to respect each other's space and disagree without resorting to wanton ad hominems.

even kadal meengal - someone might argue kamal hassan was there..
take archanai pookkaL - narumana malargalin suyamvaramO - one listen is enough to bow our head in front of master's genius.
There is mix of all musical styles without one 'polluting' the other - yet they sound in unison - I havent heard, east or west - such a creation.
Anyone who can create something new from existing without altering the purity of all archetypes he/she is operating with is in my mind a GENIUS.
In cricket parlances, the wristwork of VVS when he can take a delivery hurled at close to 100mph on the offside corridor to squareleg boundary - is a genius.
To perfect that poise, that steadiness and achieve the mastery through years of careful practice - that is GENIUS and I have no doubt in my mind to bestow the word to our
isaignaani Ilaiyaraaja when it comes to music - for he has persevered hard to acquire the balance of skill and intuition, technique and inspiration, spontaneity and careful planning.
Others in this field of music making dont have the balance. If MSV had the inspiration, he lacked the technique and sorely needed V.Ramamoorthy, If KVM had the skill (carnatic), he 
had to rely upon the perseverance and dedication of pugazendhi to flesh out his ideas, if ARR had the vision, he needs hoards of team members starting from the overaction srinivas, to nehru thoppi srinivasa moorthy 
to bass arranger keith peters and offcourse the singers and instrumentalists to jam and jell together to find an inspirational moment of creation.
Given all this, I dont have to be MA in musicology to say Raaja is the only genius in the field of music composers in India right now (now = 1940s to till date).
One thing detractors can do to save their own souls is to accept this FACT and thank their senses for grasping this. Yeah - I probably went overboard - but I dont care, coz it is simply plainly the TRUTH and stating it makes me feel so GOOD.

ravinat sir's e-book:
http://freetamilebooks.com/ebooks/music-genious-raja/

Really solid writing, clear thoughts... Fantastic work Ravi!!!

After a long time, I checked out "pazhaiya veedu" (to find the link for my post on vAnam niRam mARum for fring's sake)...and chanced upon this funny post by one Gopal S :
http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?10454-Why-I-Consider-IR-Unparalleled&p=1148686&viewfull=1#post1148686

Interesting to see venkkiram doing the torch bearer job for IR

app,
Venkiram .. unmaiyaga badhil koduthu kondu irukirar...... Singathai seendi vittutanga........ Evidence aga vandhu
kondu irukiradhu....... adhai purindhu kolla Nyanam vendum...........

app_engine wrote:ravinat sir's e-book:
http://freetamilebooks.com/ebooks/music-genious-raja/

Idhai vida.. puriyara madhiiri .. solli thara mudiyadhu.. prove panna mudiyadhu..........  Great work Ravi nat........

azhagaga solli irukar.. IR's compositiion patri..........

Annasi pazhathai mampazha suvai pola namba vaikum Isai Mayakarar avar..............

IR Fans.....

Naam dhan Munnodi........ Isaiyai purindhu.. katru.. therindhu.. adhai patri pesa... ezhudha....... adhil poi irukadhu.

indha Genius .. indha vaarthaiyum Ravi nat.. romba varusham munbu... ezhudha arambithadhu........

ipodhu dhan.. matra MDS.. Fans follow seiyaranga.......... kathukaranga.... We are the First............ adhai accept seiyanam.. matra MDs Fans. Tats all................