அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  ravinat on Wed May 04, 2016 11:11 pm

ravinat wrote:
mythila wrote:Well, I have not seen "ThAra thappattai". But to answer app,
Rudramadevi bgm should have been a strong contender for the bgm NA.
It is unfortunate that the movie and music sank without a trace.


As we discussed in another thread, WCM work of Raja gets never selected for any award, though he richly deserves it. In the recent years, disappointments include : a) Nandalala b) ASK c) Rudramadevi and d) OAK

The criteria is so confusing that I have never come to terms with Minsara Kanavu or Lagaan or Kannathil Muthamittal. There is nothing truly 'Indian' about any of these scores.

If the criteria of TT was applied to ASK, he should have still won an award. I hope he gets rewarded for a decent WCM score in his lifetime.  It will be a shame not to recognize him for that.

What Raja does is correct - screw these guys!

At least, I do not want the members of this forum to take Raja's WCM work lightly. This is the reason for my separate thread on harmony from obscure films/songs.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  irfan123 on Thu May 05, 2016 4:52 am

“Till 2010, there was one national award for Best Music Direction. I have received it thrice — for Sagara Sangamam, Sindhu Bhairavi and Rudraveena. What is the meaning of giving me an award for Best Music Direction – Background Score, and M. Jayachandran an award for Best Music Direction? It not only means that I have done an incomplete job as music director but also implies that only half of my work is good. It means that the committee now encourages music directors to do half the job,” explained Mr. Ilaiyaraaja

http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/when-ilaiyaraaja-struck-a-different-note/article8557730.ece?homepage=true

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  V_S on Thu May 05, 2016 5:03 pm

SuperOSuper!!! Slap on the face of I&B ministry and the jury. cheers cheers cheers cheers எல்லியில்லா மகிழ்ச்சி. Very happy Raja said this. Really it would be embarrassing to a music director. I believe this award was divided considering no one in the industry was capable of giving that 'holistic' music (songs and background score) and they feared they would end up giving to Maestro every time which they surely didn't want to do. Even in 80s and 90s they did utter disgrace of not awarding him for several deserving years. It is right time to give it back to them, when they take these highest responsibilities for granted.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  app_engine on Thu May 05, 2016 6:21 pm

In Thamizh Hindu

The comments below that article again showcase the hate some have for the genius (and accordingly their ignorance as well Laughing )

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  ravinat on Thu May 05, 2016 9:55 pm

Raja has the right to voice his opinion. However, elsewhere, awards are given separately for BGM and songs. Even when ARR got his award for SDM, he got two awards as a result of these two categories.



Nothing unusual about National awards following a practice that is followed worldwide. However, Raja has the right and the committee the responsibility to explain the rationale behind such a decision of giving him the award in one category and not in the other.



As I mentioned in my previous post, the committee has no solid criteria for any of this selection process. That is the issue.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  V_S on Fri May 06, 2016 10:54 pm

Latest kooval:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF82-Lo2lvw

Let's talk it here, rather than in that thread as it mostly revolves around Tharai Thappatai and National award.

Lot of inhumane and totally illogical rants and false, outrageous allegations. Nothing shocking and surprising as we have already seen a similar kind in his previous interview. It is much more in this one. I would not be responding if it was not Maestro's brother.

Let's address each issue one by one.

interviewer wrote:ரெண்டு வாட்டி receive பண்ணல அதுக்கு என்ன காரணம்னு தெரிஞ்சிக்கலாமான்னு
நல்ல வம்பு வேண்டியிருக்கு? right? This sets the tone of the interview on what they were looking for and how they were rewarded with generous response from GA. Way to go media!!

ga wrote:I don't want Indian awards, I want only oscar award only
ஒங்க கிட்ட அவர் வந்து சொன்னாரா? What an outrageous allegation and assumption!

ga wrote:ஆஸ்கார் ல கூட இப்படி இல்லயேமா, original song, original score/re-recording னு தனித்தனியா தான கொடுக்குறாங்க
Let get some history behind Oscars since it has been quoted. Does Gangai Amaran really know why Academy awards music in two separate categories?
Please read through this link and also check out which films were nominated and which films won
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Original_Song

As we can see this category was "originally" introduced mainly for the films which are musical films, musical comedies, dramas, animation films, which normally do not compete with the mainstream feature films. Since they don't want them to be left out, they announced this category; original song. Again this category introduction is not without flaws, as we can see some recent films where Titanic, James Bond films, SDM all were both mainstream and had songs so got eligible in this category as well. Again we need to see, how disheartening depressing it would have been for these music director/composers to have been awarded only for the song, but not for the original score just because they are musical/animation films. Case in point being Toy Story 3, Monsters Inc etc. There are innumerable musical and animation films where their scores were left out of even nomination just because they are not mainstream. Of course there are exceptions like The Lion King. We also need to remember when we say The Lion King or Titanic there were two different music directors/artists. While Hans Zimmer won for the score in The Lion King, Elton John won for the original song. Same applies to Titanic (James Horner and Celine Dion). So the main object for what it was created is lost. So we need not take Oscars as some benchmark for arriving at the same idea and execution in Indian films. Oscars has its own flaws. Another big difference is that the artists who work on the songs in the film are not often associated with films and they have their own albums, fans, concerts etc. Directors involve them and recognize them as well. So please don’t compare Oscars with Indian films. We will never meet.

On the other hand, In India there was no such concept of score and songs until Maestro came on board. All were song based films (even now with very few exceptions). If you take music category National award in India, it was only for songs even after Maestro won three times. They never recognized his scores or in fact anybody's scores. Maestro made them listen at the score. So in a way, Maestro helped I&B ministry and jury to open their eyes and look back what they were missing to see. So they have to thank him for generations together.

Regarding
ga wrote:நீங்க 15 பாட்டுனாலும் ஒரு பாட்டுக்குதானே கொடுக்குறோம்

சத்தமா சொல்லிடாதீங்க எல்லாரும் குபீர்னு சிரிச்சிடப் போறாங்க. This statement is a total disgrace to National Awards committee and music directors if this is what you intend to give award for “Music Direction”. இதுல செந்தூரப்பூவே example வேற. But I understand where you are coming from. Since this year it was awarded this way to M Jayachandran just for one song, going forward National awards will be reduced to giving awards for music direction even if one song in the film is good ? Wow! This is the height of mediocrity and Nation's most prestigious music award supports it.

Another trend in music direction which we tend to overlook both in yesteryears and nowadays is many music directors only compose songs and outsource background score to some third party or some other music director or his assistant directors. Case in point,  ennu ninte moideen where there are three different music directors; Ramesh Narayan, M Jayachandran, Gopi Sundar, while Gopi Sundar took care of background score as well.  adaminte makan abu  - Isaac Thomas Kottukapally for songs, Songs: Ramesh Narayan, naa bangaru thalli - score Shantanu Moitra, Songs: Sharreth. Even I heard ARR and many other music directors outsource most of their films scores to someone else.

This trend is a bad trend and this shows the amount of inability between music directors. If Raja says “it only means I have done an incomplete job as a music director, but also implies that only half of my work is good” I really don’t know how it becomes as an arrogant statement or neglecting NA award. He even takes the blame of other music director’s inability onto himself when he says that. It is in fact a response to the awards committee to reconsider their selecting process and strategies to encourage and support the highest quality rather than supporting mediocrity. As a citizen of India and a true artist, he has every right to express his opinion.

ga wrote:rerecording and song ஒரு ஆளுக்கு தான் கொடுக்கணும்னு சொல்றாருமா
What’s wrong in that? Can we not bring back the real capability of music directors with such decisions? If one takes these statements that Raaja is jealous and arrogant, no one can help them. You yourself acknowledge that music directors nowadays outsource the background score, but then why you are you even encouraging such music directors? By dividing the music direction award into two, you are in fact supporting an easy way for them to receive Nation's highest music awards. Aren't you?

ga wrote:அவங்களும்தான் வாங்கிட்டு போகட்டுமே
இது என்ன கத்திரிக்காய் வியாபாரமா? கலை சார். Until they realize the importance of background score in films, and until they realize how both the songs and score are tightly integrated into film making process and until they realize what it takes to become a "responsible" music directorஇந்த அவார்ட் லாம் அவங்க வாங்காம இருந்தாதான் என்ன கெட்டுபோச்சு? All these stupid reasoning and talks shamelessly support for mediocrity, nothing else.

ga wrote:மத்தவங்கள உதாசினபடுத்தும் கொள்கை, நீங்க மட்டும் தான் மியூசிக் டைரக்டர்
No he knows what it takes to be a true music director, that’s the crux which you will never understand in your life time.

ga wrote:இசைக்காக வாழ்ந்துட்டு அவார்ட் வேணாம்னா எனக்கு புரியல
ga wrote:இவர்தான் வருஷம் முழுக்க வாங்கனுமா?
ga wrote:எல்லாம் எனக்குதான் வேணும் எல்லாம் எனக்குதான் வேணும்
Are you not contradicting your own statements (1 vs 2&3)?
ga wrote:அரைச்ச மாவையே அரைப்போமான்னா
வன்மம் எப்படி தெறிச்சிக்கிட்டு வெளியெ வருது பாருங்க! If he is repeating, why are you guys even giving him film chance? Why don't you recommend all the directors and producers not to give him any chance? This statement hurts me a lot. These guys don't have a clue what fabulous compositions he is giving, because they don't want to listen at all. கடவுளே! இசைக்கு தன்னை முழுதும் அர்பணித்த ஒரு இசைமேதையை இதை விட கேவலமா பேசமுடியாது, அதுவும் மற்றவரில்லாமல் ஒரு தம்பியாக.

ga wrote:நம்ம காலம் முடிஞ்சிபோச்சுன்னு அவர் யோசிக்கணும்
This is one the most disgusting allegation  Twisted Evil  Evil or Very Mad If you think you are old, that is your problem, not his. If you are saying this to your brother and his art, you are unfit to be a human leave alone his brother. There is no age for art. This is the passion which you guys don’t have and that’s why you guys are living in his shadow. Please remember that.

ga wrote:இந்தியாவ்ல கொடுக்குற அவார்ட இந்தியாவுக்கு கொடுக்குற மரியாதையா
If he expresses his honest opinions about the awards process and its fallacy, and you interpret in the above way, you are the most arrogant person, not Raja. Also did you care to talk to him the first time when he didn’t go to receive the NA award for Pazhassi Raja(for background score)? Why are you asking now? Even know if the press would not care to ask him, he would not have expressed this either.  As a brother you should know this, he will not even express anything, as he does not work for awards and that's where the difference between you and your brother.  Where were you when he scored all the Hey Ram, Guru, Kalapani, OAK, Rudhramadevi and countless other 80s and 90s film where he was totally ignored by NA awards committee. Did he ever express his concerns that he should have got this award and that? That time were you not sad that he didn’t receive the award, then why now you are bouncing when he expresses his concerns. Just because you recommended? Also who said, that he rejected the award? Did he reject the award for Pazhassi Raja? If he does not turn up, you and everyone assume yourself that he rejected the award? Did he tell you that? He was only expressing his unhappiness over the judgement. You were saying either Bhava,Karthik or Yuvan could have received the award? Who received it for Pazhassi Raja?

ga wrote:நான் எப்போதும் அநியாயங்களுக்கு துணை போக மாட்டேன்
ஓஹோ! இப்போ என்ன பண்ணிகிட்டு இருக்கீங்கன்னு நெனைக்கிறீங்க. சொந்த அண்ணனையே விட்டு கொடுத்தாச்சு. அவருக்கு ஊருக்கு முன்னாடி நல்ல பட்டமெல்லாமும் கட்டியாயாச்சு. இதை விட இன்னும் என்ன அநியாயம் செய்யணும்.

Regarding the allegation of  ஜிங்கிடி ஜிங்கிடி ஒனக்கு and வதன வதன வாடி வடிவேலனே being copies,
The opening lines are similar, but even there, the pitch, scale and singing are way different.
Even if I agree, that was merely 10 seconds of the song. Hear from anu-pallavi and say if there are any similarities.
சந்தேகம் வரலாமா
காதல் கிளிக்கு தேகம் சுடலாமா
Versus
பொல்லாத பய பக்தி கொண்டேனடா
என்னோட சுய புத்தி சொன்னேனடா
சொன்னாலும் புரியாதுடா
Also hear the prelude, interludes and charaNams (vathana has no distinguished charaNams) of both the songs to compare. They are totally different and outrageous allegation. Most of all, the mood is entirely different. This is like saying unnai allai vERE gathi illai amma by Papanasam Sivam in Kalyani raagam is same as himadri sutE paahimaam by Shyam Shastry and Nidhi chaala sukamaa by Thyagarajar and pankaja lOchana by Swati Thirunaal.

We already got the useless allegation of paararuvaaya and how you rejected song quoting the placement on the song. No word on idarinum and aattakkaari maaman poNNu. 25 minutes of songs rejected just for some vague 10 seconds similarity (that too from his own compositions). Ask your interviewer to put both the songs right from prelude till end in the same 10 second interval to conclude for the public. The 10 seconds of audio clipping would make you and your interviewer comfortable, but not us.

இதுல இந்த interviewer வேற ஏதோ  எல்லாம் தெரிஞ்சா மாதிரி எல்லாத்துக்கும்
interviewer wrote: கரெக்ட், நெஜமா, கண்டிப்பா, அமாம் சார்
ஓமாம் Evil or Very Mad  Twisted Evil

ga wrote:முழுக்க முழுக்க அவர் மேலதான் தப்பு
ga wrote:அவருக்கு தம்பியா பொறந்ததுனால
Done with Gangai Amaran No  confused Embarassed Sleep

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  AbhiMusiq on Sun May 08, 2016 2:39 am

I personally didnt understand Raja's stand here. If a movie has only BGM and no songs,and if the composer has done an exemplary job in back ground score he still can  be recognised. Isn't it?So two categories of awards(or the bifurcation ) infact make sense in that situation

There are movies where the songs may not go well,but the BGM stands out and vice versa. There are movies where both come out well.So its fair enough to be judged in two different categories,especially in music.

Now GA may have taken it to a personal level to attack raja,but however from the standpoint of an award  it makes sense to have to have 2 categories-just a personal thought.

Also with full respect to the great legend whom I adore,i felt that he was not happy to share awards with anyone as he believes that  his score is a "Complete package" and he did not want to walk away with half award.Thats the most simple way to put it.Legends are like that and we can do nothing about that. Some people may tag that behaviour as Ego.A few may tag that as arrogance(Like GA).Many others may call that as unhappiness etc. Its just the way you look at it-Smile:-)

This is what M jayachandran has to say on the issue

http://www.manoramaonline.com/music/music-news/ilayaraja-m-jayachandran.html

A small translation on what Jayachandran said:

Ilayaraja is a composer whom I admire the most.He is a great legend whom I consider like a Guru.I do not agree with his stance on the issue but at the same time do not want to say against him as I just cannot do that.

The fact that he has mentioned my name or knows me itself is a big honour for me which I feel very happy.

A great legend like him can reject awards,but Iam a common man who value all these awards and feel proud as a citizen to get this from the president of India.I cherish those moments.

Earlier Johnson bagged the award for BGM in 1994 and then it started again in 2009.I feel that Songs and BGM are two different parameters but at the same time a composer should be capable to handle both to be a complete composer.Oscar also follows the similar pattern.ARR has received awards for best song and original orchestral score and this is a format accepted worldwide. Now if a composer has done both aspects well,he should receive awards in both segments".While saying all this I still dont disrespect or not saying against raja sir,but is a humble personal opinion.

In malayalam Bijipal and Gopi sundar has also received national awards for original score.Its just that there is a seperate category now that they got recognised for their work and I personally feel that there should be two segments ,viewed seperately,but at the same time both equally important for a movie.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  ravinat on Sun May 08, 2016 6:16 pm

AbhiMusiq wrote:I personally didnt understand Raja's stand here. If a movie has only BGM and no songs,and if the composer has done an exemplary job in back ground score he still can  be recognised. Isn't it?So two categories of awards(or the bifurcation ) infact make sense in that situation

There are movies where the songs may not go well,but the BGM stands out and vice versa. There are movies where both come out well.So its fair enough to be judged in two different categories,especially in music.

Now GA may have taken it to a personal level to attack raja,but however from the standpoint of an award  it makes sense to have to have 2 categories-just a personal thought.

Also with full respect to the great legend whom I adore,i felt that he was not happy to share awards with anyone as he believes that  his score is a "Complete package" and he did not want to walk away with half award.Thats the most simple way to put it.Legends are like that and we can do nothing about that. Some people may tag that behaviour as Ego.A few may tag that as arrogance(Like GA).Many others may call that as unhappiness etc. Its just the way you look at it-Smile:-)

This is what M jayachandran has to say on the issue

http://www.manoramaonline.com/music/music-news/ilayaraja-m-jayachandran.html

A small translation on what Jayachandran said:

Ilayaraja is a composer whom I admire the most.He is a great legend whom I consider like a Guru.I do not agree with his stance on the issue but at the same time do not want to say against him as I just cannot do that.

The fact that he has mentioned my name or knows me itself is a big honour for me which I feel very happy.

A great legend like him can reject awards,but Iam a common man who value all these awards and feel proud as a citizen to get this from the president of India.I cherish those moments.

Earlier Johnson bagged the award for BGM in 1994 and then it started again in 2009.I feel that Songs and BGM are two different parameters but at the same time a composer should be capable to handle both to be a complete composer.Oscar also follows the similar pattern.ARR has received awards for best song and original orchestral score and this is a format accepted worldwide. Now if a composer has done both aspects well,he should receive awards in both segments".While saying all this I still dont disrespect or not saying against raja sir,but is a humble personal opinion.

In malayalam Bijipal and Gopi sundar has also received national awards for original score.Its just that there is a seperate category now that they got recognised for their work and I personally feel that there should be two segments ,viewed seperately,but at the same time both equally important for a movie.

M.Jayachandran's response makes total sense.

He sticks to the point and he is also a fan of Raja - very fitting of him to state this sensibly.  If GA had spoken like this, it may not be such an issue. In some matters like this, Raja has to move on and not look back at earlier times.

My view is that they should simply name the BGM award as 'Ilayaraja award for BGM' and exclude him from being awarded. This is where he will set an example. (Lata Mangeshkar did that after they kept rewarding her repeatedly, though they did not name the award after her). He has too unfair an advantage as the person who defined this art in India. Like Lataji, they should award him the Bharat Ratna and be done with it.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  AbhiMusiq on Mon May 09, 2016 12:08 pm

It makes sense to give the award as "Ilayaraja BGM award",but with this years rejection and controversy,doubt whether all that would happen and if Ilayaraja will ever be considered again for another National award.

But for the legend that he is and for all his great achievements in music..These awards may not matter and should not bother him at all.

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  V_S on Mon May 09, 2016 4:18 pm

Wonderful post by Vasuki Baskar. As I have indicated in the my earlier posts (from the first interview itself) that it is not hard to guess GA's intention, agenda and confused conflict of interests. This link is for those who still think GA's intentions are not venomous. How can a post which talks about all this and still feel like a poetry? Simple, but said in a beautiful way. Every word echoes my thoughts.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208490100105756&id=1104997241

மனசு இன்னும் ஆறமாடேங்குது. My heart goes for Maestro. Feel very sorry for him.

_________________
Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth - Pablo Picasso

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  ravinat on Mon May 09, 2016 10:28 pm

AbhiMusiq wrote:It makes sense to give the award as "Ilayaraja BGM award",but with this years rejection and controversy,doubt whether all that would happen and if Ilayaraja will ever be considered again for another National award.

But for the legend that he is and for all his great achievements in music..These awards may not matter and should not bother him at all.


The award committees are full of clowns. When they knew Raja will not accept an award for one of the two categories, they still gave him an award in 2016. So, don't dismiss one more possibility - the committee members change, and you never know.

As I mentioned, they should give him the 'BR' award and be done with it and focus on other composers. Raja belongs to a different league. I never respect this committee as it never rewarded RD throughout his life. 

Every new composer today in HFM, is measured against a yardstick called RD (though not the greatest of HFM composers, very versatile in his work). Similarly, every new composer in South Indian films will always be measured against Raja. The HFM standard is easy to comply (and most new composers fall short of this yardstick) but the SI yardstick is a tree, not a stick :-)

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Re: அழகு "ஆயிரம்" என்ற தாரை தப்பட்டை (பாலா-சசிகுமார்)

Post  irfan123 on Fri May 13, 2016 4:41 am

ravinat wrote:
AbhiMusiq wrote:It makes sense to give the award as "Ilayaraja BGM award",but with this years rejection and controversy,doubt whether all that would happen and if Ilayaraja will ever be considered again for another National award.

But for the legend that he is and for all his great achievements in music..These awards may not matter and should not bother him at all.


The award committees are full of clowns. When they knew Raja will not accept an award for one of the two categories, they still gave him an award in 2016. So, don't dismiss one more possibility - the committee members change, and you never know.

As I mentioned, they should give him the 'BR' award and be done with it and focus on other composers. Raja belongs to a different league. I never respect this committee as it never rewarded RD throughout his life. 

Every new composer today in HFM, is measured against a yardstick called RD (though not the greatest of HFM composers, very versatile in his work). Similarly, every new composer in South Indian films will always be measured against Raja. The HFM standard is easy to comply (and most new composers fall short of this yardstick) but the SI yardstick is a tree, not a stick :-)
All we want is IR doesnt fall for all the clown statements by GA and get angry and gets diverted (when family member makes such harsh comments in public) rather IR stays away from media when somone approaches asking can you respond for clown statements. I am not sure if i recollect correctly when media asked his reply for BR public thaakuthal IR responded "Paithiakaaran pechukal ellam naan bathil alipathilai. Go and ask him" (something similar to that he responded again this came from some media so not sure)..

IR is not of type how Bala called for public meeting and warned BR for movie controversy. I think since then BR kept quiet. If not IR some one known to GA or close to him should warn exactly how bala warned BR so he doesnt talk again in public like that.

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