Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

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Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:32 pm

Starting this with a blogpost on the various lyricists Ilayaraaja has worked with:

http://raajasongadaykeepsboredomaway.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/136-ilayaraaja-and-the-various-lyricists/

The floor is yours gentlemen/women Smile

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:58 am

A great start to the thread that doesn't leave much for others to add as far as debunking the VM myth goes. A must-read for VM shills, if only they have the mental fortitude to read and digest facts (hope all those are verified facts btw  Smile ). The greatest thing about facts is that you can't argue about them. It is good that you chose to objectively highlight numbers and even if there is a slight subjectivity in categorising songs as "hits" and "classics", few reasonable people can argue that "Germaniyin", "Paruvame', "Kadhal oviyam", "Kaadhalin deepam ondru" (Panju Arunachalam) or "Boopaalam isaikkum", "Raaga deepam ", "Sangeedha megam", "idhazhil kadhai ezhudhum" (Muthulingam) were neither hits nor classics - in the same league as "Andhi mazhai" or "Pon maalai pozhudhu". I think it can in fact be argued objectively that Vaali was the greatest lyricist to work with Raja - in terms of longevity, numbers, breadth and meaningful lyrics - but that is a topic for another thread.

This post should be the final nail in the coffin for dishonest/misguided VM worshippers who try to diminish Raja and his work with other lyricists. You have smashed that nail pretty deep and they have to pull some real devilish tricks to find their way out of there. Of course, this first requires them to acknowledge they are stuck in a coffin, which I am sure they won't.

And you shouldn't even have included VM's salangai oli songs in his hit-list. Plum wouldn't approve. Remembered the series of posts by him in the Telugu thread on Diamondu's "translations". 
http://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t110-endharo-mahanubhavulu-mahanubhavulakki-mahanubhavudu-ilaiyaraja-raja-in-telugu
Must read! Severe expose of Diamondu's shortcomings Laughing 

plum wrote:nee thodangum bodhu mudiyum, mudium bodhu thodarm is the sort of pudhukavidhai gibberish that 3rd year arts colleve kavignars come up with.

 rotfl3 

Anyway, I think nobody actually bought the violin-tabla myth despite many attempts by certain parties to push that viewpoint. But one popular myth that still persists is wrt song-structuring. So let me simply link the other thread where we discussed this elaborately.

http://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t159-let-s-talk-song-structuring

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  V_S on Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:57 am

Wow! Phenomenal!!  applause Congratulations for such an enormous feat. This is by far the most exhaustive analysis and effort in a blog of various lyricists to bring out an important answer that how every lyricist is important but not each one alone is important. I would even add that it is because of Maestro’s memorable tunes, these lyrics got life and popularity, but the other way round is not true.
Hats off to your effort!!

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:31 am

Fring,

Thanks Smile Yes every fact is verified down to Eri Kara Poongaathe and Malayoram Mayile. A cynic may verify all 250 songs and get disappointed for a few hours Razz And every lyricist's contributions, GA's 500+ songs and Panju A's 500+ songs is a fact. It is possible that VM wrote the maximum during the time he worked with Raaja among all lyricists but even his individual excellence could write only 30% of songs/hits for Raaja. Took me 4-5 hours to prepare all the playlists and another 5 hours to jot it all down in the blog. Some 10 hrs over 2 weeks. Well researched.

Of course I have read Plum. His take on Laali Laali is equally hilarious, especially Diamond's idhamaana laali and padhamaana laali  rotfl2 This is an objective take hence having this to humor the VM-tards.

Thanks V_Sji. Of course, an Ilaya Nila, irrespective of who wrote it would have been a chartbuster just for its tune. That the lyrics is excellent too is a bonus (I know of the salavai nila episode but other than that, some outstanding stuff in the charanam from VM). No one is demeaning VM here. Just giving him his due rather than hype him beyond his worth, which is what is a case of actual bias. Same holds for Germaniyin Sen Then Malare and Sangeedha Megam. But this being an objective analysis, did not want to get subjective and add my views there.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  ravinat on Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:04 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:Starting this with a blogpost on the various lyricists Ilayaraaja has worked with:

http://raajasongadaykeepsboredomaway.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/136-ilayaraaja-and-the-various-lyricists/

The floor is yours gentlemen/women Smile

DM

Commendable effort on two counts. Firstly, taking a numerical route to analysis and secondly, trying to use the power of numbers to bust a myth.

Raja's work in very huge and cannot be dealt only at the textual/emotional/opinionated way. However, doing a numerical analysis of anything that Raja has done is a daunting task and you deserve all the kudos for that. Raja's work is so prolific, that scanning through his 5000 song database for any criteria requires commitment and a sense of purpose that something will emerge at the end of the travel.

You have certainly brought a lot more authenticity to arguments on Raja by taking a statistical approach and the significance of the numbers relative to the overall population (of his work).
This is a small step, but in the right direction.  This requires enormous energy and commitment. Keep up the good work. applause 

I have a few more thoughts on the presentation of some of your conclusions.  While there is nothing wrong in the way you have presented the conclusions with lyricists and their contribution to Raja's overall success, I felt that you can nail this better by using two simple techniques: a) show a table of their contribution to the overall population and the ratio of their contribution. b) Derive your final conclusions using bullet points than free flowing text. (I am sure point 2) can be addressed even now with a few edits to your post)

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:14 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:Thanks V_Sji. Of course, an Ilaya Nila, irrespective of who wrote it would have been a chartbuster just for its tune. That the lyrics is excellent too is a bonus (I know of the salavai nila episode but other than that, some outstanding stuff in the charanam from VM). No one is demeaning VM here. Just giving him his due rather than hype him beyond his worth, which is what is a case of actual bias. Same holds for Germaniyin Sen Then Malare and Sangeedha Megam. But this being an objective analysis, did not want to get subjective and add my views there.

Whether you have seen this before?

http://www.mahadevanramesh.com/Articles/ramesh4.html

ramesh mahadevan wrote:[size=16.363636016845703]But, lets quickly take a look at Vairamuthu's magnum opus, 'Ilaya nila pozhigirathu'.[/size]
[size=16.363636016845703]First of all, what is 'ilaya nila' ? Is it the moon right after new moon, lets say the third or the fourth phase ? or is it moon at the beginning of the evening ? And what does it 'pozhinjify' ? Isn't pozhigirathu a transitive verb requiring a noun or a noun clause (direct object) ? If Vairamuthu had his way, the age old song which went 'Amudhai pozhiyum nilave' would be simply reduced to 'Pozhiyum nilave, nee arugil varaadhadhu eno ?'[/size]
[size=16.363636016845703]The rest of the song meanders around disjointedly from one subject to another and at one place he writes, 'Mugilinangal alaigiraTHU, mugavarigal tholaindhanavo'. What exactly is 'Mugilinangal' ? 'Kinds of clouds' like Cumulonimbus and Cirrus ? All occurring simultaneously in the sky ? Or was he simply implying a 'lot of clouds' ? In which case, why is he mixing singular and plural ? Isn't it 'AlaiginDRANA', especially when the plural also goes with the tune ? Why didn't he mix singular and plural in the second part of the line ? If this can be accepted as simple 'poetic license', I guess, he will not get his poetic license in the state of Colorado.[/size]

 Laughing

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:55 am

ravinat wrote:
I have a few more thoughts on the presentation of some of your conclusions.  While there is nothing wrong in the way you have presented the conclusions with lyricists and their contribution to Raja's overall success, I felt that you can nail this better by using two simple techniques: a) show a table of their contribution to the overall population and the ratio of their contribution. b) Derive your final conclusions using bullet points than free flowing text. (I am sure point 2) can be addressed even now with a few edits to your post)

Thanks a lot Sir Smile Point 2, already done and updated. Good idea actually. Point 1 I am a little hesitant since I don't have the exact precise numbers other than for Vairamuthu's. I know for a fact that Vaali, Gangai Amaran and Panju A wrote more songs than VM did and in that period between 1980-86, VM would have written the single most number of songs for an individual but again that's only 1/3rd of the overall hits. But I don't have the exact numbers for Vaali, GA and Panju. Would be more daunting than for VM since they've written hundreds more. VM's data also I have been able to gleam via app_engine's tireless efforts and if not for him, I'd not have been able to put VM in perspective with the whole lot of lyricists.

Fring,

 Laughing "Mugilinangal alaigiraTHU" thupparArO? Razz but hey, enthusiastic fan, I enjoy such sincere commitment Smile but the same lines for a lesser tune. Work aagirukkAdhu imo. Again, opinions. Stayed away from opinions all through the post for most part that you have taken the liberty to post our opinion in the comments Smile

Btw, PM.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:10 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:"Mugilinangal alaigiraTHU" thupparArO but hey, enthusiastic fan, I enjoy such sincere commitment  but the same lines for a lesser tune. Work aagirukkAdhu imo. Again, opinions. Stayed away from opinions all through the post for most part that you have taken the liberty to post our opinion in the comments 

IrukkalAm. Very funny guy. Used to be some sort of Krish Ashok equivalent in popularity (only much funnier) back in the day. Have met him once in Chennai (where he now lives).  Smile 

Ya, good that you steered clear of opinions. You are probably THE MOST nyaayamaana, yet uncompromising Raaja fan around  Laughing

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  app_engine on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:14 pm

Great effort DM!
the clap

I've shared the link on twitter.

However, I don't want the splendid effort to become simply "preaching to the choir".

That's why I left a comment in your blog encouraging someone to post your blog link on the "last-song-heard" thread of mayyam. That's where most of the VM-die-hards often visit. Quick to reach such ones, IMHO...(Of course, no need to engage in any discussion with such ones but they should at least know).

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  ravinat on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:31 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:
ravinat wrote:
I have a few more thoughts on the presentation of some of your conclusions.  While there is nothing wrong in the way you have presented the conclusions with lyricists and their contribution to Raja's overall success, I felt that you can nail this better by using two simple techniques: a) show a table of their contribution to the overall population and the ratio of their contribution. b) Derive your final conclusions using bullet points than free flowing text. (I am sure point 2) can be addressed even now with a few edits to your post)

Thanks a lot Sir :)Point 2, already done and updated. Good idea actually. Point 1 I am a little hesitant since I don't have the exact precise numbers other than for Vairamuthu's. I know for a fact that Vaali, Gangai Amaran and Panju A wrote more songs than VM did and in that period between 1980-86, VM would have written the single most number of songs for an individual but again that's only 1/3rd of the overall hits. But I don't have the exact numbers for Vaali, GA and Panju. Would be more daunting than for VM since they've written hundreds more. VM's data also I have been able to gleam via app_engine's tireless efforts and if not for him, I'd not have been able to put VM in perspective with the whole lot of lyricists.

Fring,

 Laughing "Mugilinangal alaigiraTHU" thupparArO? :Pbut hey, enthusiastic fan, I enjoy such sincere commitment :)but the same lines for a lesser tune. Work aagirukkAdhu imo. Again, opinions. Stayed away from opinions all through the post for most part that you have taken the liberty to post our opinion in the comments Smile

Btw, PM.
The #1 frustration for analysts of Raja's work is the lack of an accurate database of his work, covering, language, lyricist, year of release and the first few words of the song. I am glad that I am not doing any extensive analysis on his BGM.  Not just his BGM, but all Indian film BGM is a holy mess. There is no cataloging, naming, nothing. As our film subjects are few social themes, most of the great work gets labeled as 'love theme'.

I have given up on the BGM side that anything will happen in our lifetime. At least, on the database of his film music, there must be an authoritative source for all analysts to draw data driven conclusions.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:49 pm

ravinat wrote:
The #1 frustration for analysts of Raja's work is the lack of an accurate database of his work, covering, language, lyricist, year of release and the first few words of the song. I am glad that I am not doing any extensive analysis on his BGM.  Not just his BGM, but all Indian film BGM is a holy mess. There is no cataloging, naming, nothing. As our film subjects are few social themes, most of the great work gets labeled as 'love theme'.

I have given up on the BGM side that anything will happen in our lifetime. At least, on the database of his film music, there must be an authoritative source for all analysts to draw data driven conclusions.

I agree. BGM scene is frustrating. Reg. database, we (10-12 of us) are in the process of collecting IR's full collection of songs' audio as HQ mp3 (but for 20-25, mostly collect senjAchu and these obscure 25 out of 5000 even for Raaja fans is proving to be a mild headache). Once we finish, we intend to split 125 albums among each of us and catalog its audio with the first 3-4 words, film, actors, lyricist, singers names, year and language accurately. Hopefully should be done in a few months. We plan to pool in our accurate collections after that and distribute it fully to all of us. I'll let you know privately once that's done to see how you may access our collection.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Nerd on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:45 pm

DM - Great job. Now that you (and app_e in the IR-VM thread) have established that Raaja did not need a VM or anybody to produce hits, there is this related myth which I want somebody to bust. Its about the lyrical quality. The easy cop out is 'quality is a subjective thing' but we still need to show some examples. To counter, "Raaja may have had big hits with other lyricists but after VM was thrown out, the lyrics in Raaja songs became cheap".

What we need to do is to collect cheap / silly lyrics by VM (forget the 'bad' ones, even in the good ones there are silly lines as correctly pointed out by a_e in that IR-VM thread) and some gold lyrics penned by others before / after VM. Just giving out one example here. What superb imagery.

பொன்மாலை நேரங்களே என் இன்ப ராகங்களே
பூவான கோலங்களே
தென் காற்றின் பிம்பங்களே தேனாடும் ரோஜாக்களே
என்னென்ன ஜாலங்களே
கண்ணோடு தோன்றும் சிறு கண்ணீரில் ஆடும்
கைசேரும் காலம் அதை என் நெஞ்சம் தேடும்
இது தானே என் ஆசைகள் <-- Gangai Amaran.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:10 pm

^^ Because you mention this:

https://twitter.com/SudhirSrinath/status/443256537264304128 bull's eye  Laughing 

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Nerd on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:18 pm

ROFL! Glad I don't follow my old friends in twitter.

And hey what's the procedure to acquire the 55 GB collection before all the tagging happens?

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:27 pm

Nerd wrote:
And hey what's the procedure to acquire the 55 GB collection before all the tagging happens?

Chennai visit anytime soon? idha Google drive'la kooda Etha mudiyAdhu in one go. Too big for that.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  app_engine on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:25 pm

Nerd wrote: To counter, "Raaja may have had big hits with other lyricists but after VM was thrown out, the lyrics in Raaja songs became cheap".

the clap

That's a good suggestion, Nerd!

Definitely something that needs to be challenged and busted.

I've completed documenting almost all of the VM hits under IR's music and it's easy to browse thru and pick the silly lines.

What would be a really good & +ve exercise is to showcase all the "good quality" lines from other lyricists with IR!

Say, if we come up with some 500+ songs (better to get 1000) that had commendable lines (not everyone of them but a few lines / a para / great saraNam / great pallavi line kinds), we will emphatically kill any opposite claim! (Of course, we can include great poems from Malayalam / Telugu / Kannada if we want to meet that 500 / 1000 number mark).

I have too many threads / projects running at the forum right now and may not be the best candidate for this on short-term. (Besides the fact that workplace is becoming somewhat busier)...

Will try to start a thread but contributions will be slow to come by...

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  app_engine on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:53 pm

Started the thread, everyone please contribute :

http://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t172-minimum-500-preferably-1000-rasa-songs-with-nice-lyrics-not-written-by-vm
(nalla pAdal varigaL with rAsA isai)


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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  V_S on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:35 pm

Wow! 90% of songs have crap lyrics post VM. It really needs a stone heart to say this. Did they really listen to every song and lyrics before coming up with such a 'hatred' conclusion and sweeping statements? I don't think so.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:05 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:^^ Because you mention this:

https://twitter.com/SudhirSrinath/status/443256537264304128 bull's eye  Laughing 

Fan of ARR, Mani Ratnam, Nadal and Dhoni. Whattay deadly combination!!!

Those two posts (excluding dagalti's) smack of a very unique combination of precise proportions of ignorance, denial, delusion, dishonesty and plain stupidity.

Is a VM-ARR thread due now? Start the proceedings, you-know-who. Ore maasathula mudichidalaam. Should be jolly good fun too. All of us will have a field day. Aaa, so many gems, "50 kg taj mahal", "Olive ennai poosi", "Avvaikku koonazhagu". Ninaichu pArthale mei silirkkudhu. Laughing

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  crimson king on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:31 am

THAT is the real myth that needs to be attacked.  With due respect to those contributions of Vaali or Gangai or even Diamond that I enjoy, I might still concede that overall lyrics were better in the MSV-TKR and Kannadasan era.  But where's the evidence that the glory of Tamil lyrics was drastically restored under ARR? What's up with 50 kg Tajmahal?

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  app_engine on Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:47 am

makkaLE,
Please don't waste energy in negative pursuits (aka ARR-VM combo's kuzhappams)...simply to disprove some manappiRazhvu souls.

(OTOH, to derive some Gounder-like pleasure, doing such derisive exercise is ok Laughing )

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:30 am

app_engine wrote:makkaLE,
Please don't waste energy in negative pursuits (aka ARR-VM combo's kuzhappams)...simply to disprove some manappiRazhvu souls.

(OTOH, to derive some Gounder-like pleasure, doing such derisive exercise is ok Laughing )

Oh, no. மனப்பிறழ்வு ஜென்மங்களுக்கு வைத்தியம் பார்ப்பது எமது நோக்கம் அல்ல. ப்யூர் டைம்பாஸ் based.  Smile . Also mafia= rowdies'nu epdiyum muthirai kuduthutanga. So we might as well burnish our street rowdy creds. OTOH Loverboys thAn avangalOda image'a bathirama pAdhukkAkkaNum. DM PM'ed me a twitter link where one world peace activist had a "Freudian slip" and put up a status saying he would like to cut off the ears of those who don't like Koch songs and feed them to the crows (or was it vultures?) and several fellow activists retweeted and favourited that tweet. That made my day, yesterday. Thanks DM.  Smile 

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Wizzy on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:49 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:
Nerd wrote:
And hey what's the procedure to acquire the 55 GB collection before all the tagging happens?

Chennai visit anytime soon? idha Google drive'la kooda Etha mudiyAdhu in one go. Too big for that.
is the directory structure something like this?

ALBUMS           Ilayaraaja\ Kannada     ILayaraja\ Marathi
BGM           Ilayaraaja\ Tamil     Ilayaraja\ Telugu
Ilayaraaja\ Hindi  Ilayaraja\ Malayalam  IR\ Photos\ &\ Interviews\ &Videos

if not add me to the Q    Smile

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  fring151 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:38 am

fring151 wrote:
Drunkenmunk wrote:^^ Because you mention this:

https://twitter.com/SudhirSrinath/status/443256537264304128 bull's eye  Laughing 

Fan of ARR, Mani Ratnam, Nadal and Dhoni. Whattay deadly combination!!!

Those two posts (excluding dagalti's) smack of a very unique combination of precise proportions of ignorance, denial, delusion, dishonesty and plain stupidity.

Is a VM-ARR thread due now? Start the proceedings, you-know-who. Ore maasathula mudichidalaam. Should be jolly good fun too. All of us will have a field day. Aaa, so many gems, "50 kg taj mahal", "Olive ennai poosi", "Avvaikku koonazhagu". Ninaichu pArthale mei silirkkudhu. Laughing

So what do those 4 have in common? They are all very good at what they do (ok, except Ratnar and Dhoni), at the same time extremely overrated (ok, except Nadal) AND are highly "successful" AND maintain great PR. If Aamirgaan were added to that list, it would be complete.

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Re: Busting Popular Myths Related to Ilayaraaja

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:06 am

Wizzy wrote:
is the directory structure something like this?

ALBUMS           Ilayaraaja\ Kannada     ILayaraja\ Marathi
BGM           Ilayaraaja\ Tamil     Ilayaraja\ Telugu
Ilayaraaja\ Hindi  Ilayaraja\ Malayalam  IR\ Photos\ &\ Interviews\ &Videos

if not add me to the Q    Smile

err, adhu dhaan structure Very Happy

Drunkenmunk

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