Raja's humility & its impact on his music

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Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  app_engine on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:18 am

Plum may say 'என் அகராதியிலேயே இல்லாத ஒரு வார்த்தை' Smile j/k

Some may consider keeping the name of IR & this term in the same line quite inappropriate / obnoxious.

It may be even considered oxymoron.

Still, per my old pet theory, whenever IR is an extremely gamandi mood, the musical output proved to be terrific! OTOH, he definitely possesses / displays the right kind of humility on many occasions (which is a virtue in my books and I could be old-fashioned there and I'm quite proud about that opinion Laughing).

Let's dedicate this thread to this H word in connection with rAsA!

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  plum on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:25 am

app - jai and I have observed on many occasion - IR's humility is of the right kind - humility before art. Not fake humility before afterall people. andha humility is my benchmark, too.

If you have to be humble before art, you have to be arrogant towards certain human beings. This is unavoidable.
Saying that, there have been occasions - like using Mano for instance - where I feel IR got sucked into the material aspect of it and didn show sufficient humility before music. Thos ewere instances, as you observe, whre project management took precedence over art.
Still, we are not claiming IR is perfect, are we?
To a large extent, he is true to his art, which is the only kind of humility that matters to me,

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  suresh2 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:52 pm

This humility bit is an over-rated virtue, and if I may add, a smokescreen for ineptitude many times. I mean, think of AVM Saravanan and what do you get? White costume and folded hands in a 'I'm all respect for you, fellow humans, all other living creatures and all the inanimate objects on earth'. If one were to draw brand attributes for him, he will pretty much check all those boxes related to respectfulness, consistency, professionalism and humility. But look closely at what he's produced in a career spanning a few decades, and if you find anything remotely artistic or aesthetic or of a higher social, cultural purpose, come crash my dream.

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  kamalaakarsh on Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:33 pm

Genuinely asking: Is this thread necessary?

I mean, shouldnt we be discussing music instead of digging nails into controversies, backing them up with assumed-theories and trying to prove something that anyway does not effect the appreciation we have for his music. Some might argue that his personality is an extension of his art. But there is nothing that can conclusively prove that and it will unnecessarily drag. His art must be the focus, not the perceived (or actual) extensions and all that.

I'd rather prefer reading different viewpoints on the music rather than going back to the same old stuff, which does not add any insight or value. So sharing news, blogposts, opinions on music, information on concerts, articles etc will be good. This personality is a tricky aspect, quite subjective and each has a different interpretation and perception. No point trying to consolidate that aspect here because there is no end to interpretation.

*gyand ends :-)

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  app_engine on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:23 am

Kamalaakarsh,

Totally understand your concern. Such discussions of mature nature may not be possible elsewhere Smile However, this being a "limited edition" forum as of now, it may be possible to explore such territory, without losing sense.

Recently I read an article by "padiththuRai" Suka where he quoted a sAhithya Academy award winning literary critic from his hometown praising IR. Per him, such artists appear once in many centuries.

Unfortunately for IR, he got placed in a highly restrictive domain for the most part of his highly creative years. All those years, IMHO, there were far less enablers to his performance than otherwise. That way, some analysis as to how the human interactions / psychological pressures / other limitations placed on a genius affected his creativity & output is PhD material.

Which is why I started this, though I'm the least qualified to do any analysis on that count. Hoping that the collective intelligence here (with variety of "insider connections") can throw some light on how in general genius minds function and in particular the mind / brain / heart of rAsA...

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  kiru on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:28 pm

Good question by kamalaakarsh :-) Sometimes when you are so knowledgeable and smart.. it is very difficult to tolerate some incompetencies or illogic .. and your annoyance shows up.. this probably is misconstrued as arrogance.. In my books, IR is humble .. because even now he says .. for eg. I am learning jazz from these Hungarian musicians.. This is profound .. think about it.. Learning .. meaning you dont know something so you are learning.. Note, he is not saying - I am working with Jazz musicians.. it is a team work.. we are collaborating etc :-)

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  plum on Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:31 pm

I have a very good answer for Vishnubotla.

Basically, you'll find across the net half-baked criticism of IR's so-called uLarals.

Basically, it is just that he doesnt conform to accepted notions of politeness. This doesnt invalidate his personal theories and philosophy. THe violent reactions to his musings are the work of minds that cannot deal with a different point of view.

ippO kooda tuyitterla equa circlesla pOikittirukku. adhula typical upper class elite ennamO survey eduththu pAathA madhiri "Raja fans ipdi, apdinu" generalise paNNikittirukkApla. Ennaththa solla?
There is an important need to espouse IR's philosophy - as Jaiganes observed, between IR and RGV, they can explain Ayn Rand from their life. Ayn Rand padichuttu uLArra adhE elite gumbal, adhai vida oru padi uyarndhu pEsum IR-in philosophyai puriyAmal "avar uLArrAr" na vENdiyadhu. AS if these jenmams understand what he is saying. 100 periyars vandhAlum thirutha mudiyAdha janmamlAm pEsudhu.

andha tuyitter UlAralai link paNNi I will then show you how typical IR critics are wrong and IR is right. wait a nimit for 5 nimits.

enavE indha thread miga miga thEvai

The violence of the socially polite wherein they violently (implicit) put forward their idea of life and uncomprehendingly reject altearn ate view points - and half-baked u no who fans criticising IR needs to be violently taken on. Hence this thread is very much needed.

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  app_engine on Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:52 pm

I guess this is from IR badhilkaL in Kumudam to readers's questions:

Bala(Karthik) wrote:

Q: உங்களிடம் அவ்வப்போது தோன்றும் ஆணவம்,அகம்பாவம் பற்றி?
ANS: அது ஒன்றுதானே எப்போதும் கூட இருக்கிறது.அது இல்லை என்றால் இசை எப்படி வரும்?

cheers

Testimonial to my theory Smile

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  plum on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:04 pm

app - ofcourse adhulha arpudhamAna uNmai irukku. aanavam illai adakkamA irukkAr ellAm summA dubakoor dhAn. ellA kalaignanukum ANAvam irukka sollO dhAn kalai padaikkaRAn. adhai veLI kAttikkAma sila pEreu vesham pOdaRAn. namma aNNan andha vEsham eppOvum pOttadhillai.

As P_R said, rasigarukku samamA iRangi vandhu oNNukkulla onnA adakkamA pEsaREngaradhu dhAn miga periya ANavam.

As I keep quoting "Dont be so humble, you are not that great". idhu humble vesham podum palarukku porundhum

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  app_engine on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:00 am

Recently read a specific accusation in a blog (similar stuff had been posted earlier too by some IR-detractors)...

That IR started talking highly about MSV & seniors ONLY AFTER ARR DETHRONED HIM it seems!

While such silly bloggers may not accept a reasonable reply for that, at the minimum, the ONLOOKERS should be told of some facts to dispel such wild allegation!

So, here are some facts - to clearly indicate that rAsA had ALWAYS been appreciative of his seniors (and none of these are heresay stuff) :

1. When rAsA was at his peak, in the early 80's, a picture of IR with Dhakshinamoorthy master appeared in Anandha vikatan (DM is a famous Malayalam MD, who did 'nandhA en nilA' in Thamizh too - the SPB classic 'nandhA nee en nilA, nilA' was composed by him) . It captioned as "IR with his guru". And in addition, it had rAsA's reply when he was asked to comment on his guru's expertise : "அந்த மேதையின் திறமைகளைப் பற்றிச்சொல்ல எனக்குத் தகுதி இல்லை". (Roughly, "I'm not even qualified to talk about his expertise"). While the words may not be exactly the same, this was the exact content of what I personally read in AV!

2. Once again, when rAsA was at his peak, in early 80's, he travelled EU and wrote his experiences as 'sangeethakkanavugaL' in kumudam as a series. (This may be now available as book but I read it chudachchuda in kumudam those days, week after week). That's where he talked highly about the WCM legends ("என் நாத தேவன் பாக்" - "My music deity Bach" - was the caption of either Bach's pic or rAsA standing by Bach's pic). And it contained details about his huge admiration for Paul Mauriat, his effort to meet him etc.

3. There had been any number of news thuNukkoos those days about IR's love for RDB and his playing kOzhi koovudhu album to RDB to get his blessings (RDB reportedly said rAsA was ahead of others by a decade)!

4. One need not look any further than 'chinnakkaNNan azhaikkiRAn' or 'andhi mazhai' for his admiration of BMK / TVG and such periyavarkaL

5. And, more importantly, MTK! Yesterday, Kameshratnam hosted the IR-MSV voice messages of that time period. Any MSV fan who tries to deride IR has to listen to that clip!

IR was obviously at his peak, with EVERY TOP HERO, DIRECTOR, PRODUCTION HOUSE & EVERY ASPIRING person coming to Kollywood WANTING TO WORK with him!

EVEN KB SWITCHED TO HIM in 1985 and their combo sindhubhairavi was a rage / award winner!

It was under such conditions, and NOT AFTER GETTING REMOVED FROM TOP SPOT, in the next YEAR 1986, that IR WORKED WITH MSV on MTK! If not for respect for senior, dedication for music & art, what was the reason for him to do that?

I wish good reason will prevail among those people who think / talk that rAsA "started respecting seniors" only after getting unseated from top spot!

That is outright silly & nonsense simply going by the above evidences!

(There are of course more "heresay" stuff, like he went on to play instruments for his erstwhile masters such as GKV / Dhakshinamoorthy even after the humongous success of annakkiLi / badhrakALi...However, I cannot authenticate such claims myself as I've not seen the evidences personally!)

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  V_S on Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:20 am

Superb post App ji. I too read their post, but can't help only to pity their 'intentional' ignorance and hatred. It is very easy to hate than to love. I certainly believe that they wanted Maestro to be out of the scene long back, since he is still on the field they could not digest as this is against the musical tradition history that if one is coming other has to go. As always Maestro defies history and time. Just because Maestro is living with us during our time, they don't realize him and his extra-ordinary skills, they just treat him as another music director. Time will definitely tell the truth.

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Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth - Pablo Picasso

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  app_engine on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:48 pm

nanRi V_Sji!

A small clarification w.r.t. my lengthy post above :

While personally I value humility / respect for elders as desirable traits / virtues, I don't really think IR - such a phenomenal talent - is in anyway OBLIGATED to pay respect to his predecessors / seniors!

So, please don't take in that sense Smile

It's just a matter-of-fact post, correcting some false propaganda!

That way, I neither endorse nor condemn rAsA's statement that he is "blessed" with MSV's spit Embarassed

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  fring151 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:48 am

Geniuses have their quirks. Period. This is from Beethoven's wikipedia page.
"Sources show Beethoven's disdain for authority, and for social rank. He stopped performing at the piano if the audience chatted amongst themselves, or afforded him less than their full attention. At soirées, he refused to perform if suddenly called upon to do so. Eventually, after many confrontations, the Archduke Rudolph decreed that the usual rules of court etiquette did not apply to Beethoven"
The great Italian composer Ennio Morricone is known to have an intense disdain for interviewers who ask dumb questions. I don't even understand why we expect geniuses to be humble. It is almost as though people want to be reassured that they are average human beings like them. Get over it. They are not. However we all know how humble Raja is before the music of Bach or S.D.Burman or MSV. As far as I am concerned, that is all that matters.

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Re: Raja's humility & its impact on his music

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:40 pm

Plum,

"app - jai and I have observed on many occasion - IR's humility is of the right kind - humility before art. Not fake humility before afterall people. andha humility is my benchmark, too."

Kindly add me also to this list Smile If I am not mistaken, I coined that phrase long back in another forum Smile about Raja being humble before his art. Was planning to write about it in my blog. Will post in detail here in a day or two.

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