Let's talk song-structuring

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Let's talk song-structuring

Post  kv on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:05 am

:trolleyforward: from the ARR thread to discuss Raaja songs that are structured differently. The intention here, of course, is not a 'naangalum rowdy' proclamation because if you know your music right, you're sure to know that playing around with structuring of songs has been around for ages and that neither Raaja nor Rahman are path-breakers in this aspect. This thread is to simply gather a list of Raaja's songs that don't work in the conventional pallavi-charanam-pallavi format.

Some of my random favorites:
ThottuppAr pattuppOnra mEni (ennai paar en azhagai paar)
http://www.raaga.com/player5/?id=264802&mode=100&rand=0.6332091885914097

uruginEn uruginEn (annEn annEn)
http://www.raaga.com/play/?id=264544

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  kv on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:41 am

Oh, and there's that little album of this man called ThiruvAsagam.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  fring151 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:26 am

Thanks for initiating this fact finding mission. For the sake of record keeping and future readers of this forum ,if any, I will repost an edited version of my post from the ARR thread here:


"EVK (1982) had two songs without any charanam - Pazhaya sogangal and thendral idai. Even PArtha vizhi from Guna had a sort of verse-chorus format - with possibly the best use of the "money note" I've heard in Indian music - while still retaining a very classical melody and arrangements - so the format is cleverly disguised and totally Indianized."


Now to songs with different charanams, off the top of my head (similar to Uruginen {What a song!!}). I made a much bigger mental list a while back, but these are the only three I remember now! Will post as it comes back to me or wait till someone else latches on to it..

Kavidhai keLungal
KalaivAniye
RAga deepam Etrum nEram

Songs where the charanams have different orchestration and/or rhythm so as to sound "almost" different

O vasantha rAja
Ennodu vaa vaa

More to follow...

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  fring151 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:39 am

This!! Just pallavi repeated twice with different arrangements. 


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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  Drunkenmunk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:13 pm

Hi folks,

First, thanks to kv for separating the thread here. Was wondering how I could talk a lot on Raaja's song structure in an ARR thread.

Secondly, good start. We have a few songs rolling. What I understand from Raaja's music is he goes for a free flow mainly only if the situation in the film calls for it. Not to break the rules and be different and cool. Why do I say this?

The few songs listed here: KalaivaaNiyE. Song is entirely in aarOhaNam. A metaphorical point made through music that the singer's life will henceforth be in ascent. This was a musical idea IR passed to KB and experimented. The experimentation fell "within" the scope of the script and situation and also elevated the climax beautifully.

Kavidhai KELungaL. Incredible song where the dancer dances. Starts off in Jog with Hindustani elements and rock and the charanam shifts to Malayamaarutham. That is called graha bEdham in Carnatic music where a change in a note can change the raga. The lyrics on cue goes, "nEtru en pAttil sruthiyum vilagiyadhE." Raaja to Vairam, getting this in the lyrics? Or Vairam understanding the virtuosity in the music, coming up this line? Your guess is as good as mine (our guess is right in all likelihood). Mind you, the rock elements persist in this Carnatic concept experimented here. Then we have counterpoints (WCM concept) as the song shifts gears to Chakravagam and briefly explodes into folk. There is the dichotomy too of ICM elements when the genres explored via the lead melody are Hindustani and rock and WCM elements as the melody explores ICM and folk. See, the song had so many elements of experimentation FOR THE DANCER ON SCREEN to experiment with different dance forms. Raaja wouldn't have composed this to only show off. He composed this to service KB's needs and while doing so, he shows off.

A pick of mine. A personal favorite. naan indha song ku eppavumE ticket edukkaradhuNdu. MarangaL Tharum MalargaL:


A shortie with no pallavi/anupallavi/charanam structure like the usual songs. Has 2 stanzas hanging with little/no orchestration and heavy orchestration. The little no orch is as blind kids sing an invocation. There is nothing outside they can see other than their devotion. As the hero discovers their food is poisoned and rushes, the panic in the situation exhibits itself in the orchestration that grows and finally explodes as the hero fights with the bad guy and saves the kids. Terrific orch and a great tune that studies a raga (Kalyani) even in its brief presence. adhellAm secondary. The fact that the song has no structure and flows freely is due to the tension in the plot and it can't take forever to have a song composed with pallavi, charanam, interludes as blind kids are going to be poisoned. It has to be short, quick and instant. This song is.

Plum mentioned Ninnai Charan Adaindhen in the other thread. I had recently written a post on why Raaja has the structuring he has: http://raajasongadaykeepsboredomaway.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/132-search/ My bottmline: His understanding of Bharathi warrants that structuring. Do read the post Smile

These are examples that tell me IR doesn't experiment with the song structure unless the script or the virtuosity of a poet (a rare case like a Bharathi) demands it and even while venturing out of the boundaries, he does a stellar job so that the script's needs are serviced and his musicality stands out too. And usually, his magic is well exhibited within the pallavi/interlude/charanam format which kv discussed superbly in the other thread.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  Drunkenmunk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:00 pm

Also, this an MSV-TKR song from a 1958 film, Pathi Bhakti. Won't strictly fit in an IR thread. But fits in the free flowing mode. Was reminded of this song watching this being rendered by Sai Vignesh in Super Singer. Absolutely wacky rock 'n' roll (Western vandhAchu bA Smile) followed by a Carnatic stanza in attAnA followed by the same rock 'n' roll tune followed by another stanza in another Carnatic raga (Ranjani?) ended by the same rock 'n' roll tune. 5 separate stanzas without the pallavi/charanam format in one rocking fusion song as early as 1958. Anymore rules to be broken? Wink


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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  app_engine on Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:54 pm

***dig***

Though this song strictly does not follow the requirements of this thread (i.e. structure is still within the pallavi-saraNam format), would like to highlight how IR started playing around with "genre-to-genre-jumping" as early as in his first year of TFM operations :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_x2DTWp2A&t=5900s

vAdiyammA, pon magaLE, vandha idam, nalla idam, rAni magaL rAjjiyamE vA vA vA vA
(palootti vaLarththa kiLi is the movie, which had the first IR-SPB-SJ duet, nAn pEsa vandhEn...all songs by Kavingar)

The youtube is quite enjoyable - because we can laugh AT it Laughing
(warning : YGM)

***end-dig***

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  Usha on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:12 pm

Raja yuva Raja  -  Deepam........ kalam kadandha isai............ Lovely Flute.......

ipodhu ellarukum sollum  Unplugged.. sollamal seidha Raja..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sbagbaanow

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  Usha on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:26 pm

seenathu pattu meni  - Thaai moogambikai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDlSgZvhlZA

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  app_engine on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:27 pm

Now, to conform to the thread requirements, let me get a few folk numbers that were part of the famous mudhal mariyAdhai...

-yE kiLi irukku
-yE kuruvi
-ERadha mala mElE

"free form" songs Laughing

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  fring151 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:34 pm

drunkenmunk wrote:Secondly, good start. We have a few songs rolling. What I understand from Raaja's music is he goes for a free flow mainly only if the situation in the film calls for it. Not to break the rules and be different and cool. Why do I say this?

Word!

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  V_S on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:00 pm

There are tons of songs without the standard structure. Let me compile a list if possible soon. Good playlist to have Smile

How can we forget the recent Sri Rama Rajyam and those three story telling songs? Where does the pallavi start and where does the charanam end? Go figure out! Very Happy
Not to forget all short songs.

Add to that the aNNanmaar kathai from Ponnar Shankar, Mudhal murai from NEPV (with just one charanam), Sangeetha Jaathi Mullai from Kaadhal Oviyam, Vedham Anuvilum from Salangai Oli, Unnai Naan ArivEn (Guna), Hey Ram (Pollatha madhanabhanam), Virumaandi songs and many more. Will come back Smile

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  app_engine on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:54 pm

V_S wrote: Sangeetha Jaathi Mullai from Kaadhal Oviyam

'veLLichchalangaigaL koNda kalaimagaL' also switches gears in the middle and a female chorus do a lovely portion...

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  baroque on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:09 pm

friends, you are all rocking here... Very Happy 

How about the mega chorus, counterpoint composition from early Ilayaraja duet
PON OVIYAM.....KAZHUGU!



Single charanam compositions are more....
just the Kanum pongal day, I was enjoying the Brother-Sister lullaby composition from Pagal Nilavu!
Piano delight with awesome flute-guitar counterpoint prelude POOVILE MEDAI NAAN PODAVAA......Jayachandran!

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  mayilSK on Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:23 pm

"Drunkenmunk :The experimentation fell "within" the scope of the script and situation and also elevated the climax beautifully" (newbie - don't know how to quote)

Precisely. Like the 'Thendral Idai' from EVK to 'Yamunai Aatriley' to Virumandi, NEPV, nothing's been for the 'sake' of it or 'revolutionizing' it.

Aside, as long as we talk about the 'free-flowing' nature of a song, sample these two naturally free flowing songs. சில சமயங்கள்ல சில பாடல்களைப் பெருக்கெடுத்து ஓடும், கட்டுக்குள்ளிருக்கும் காட்டாறுகள்னு நினைப்பேன். இவை ரெண்டும் கட்டுக்குள் திரியும் கடலலைகளைப் போன்றவை. Both are very close to me. The situations demanded. One being sad and the other opposite. Sung by the man himself.

'Kadaliley ezhumbura' from 'Chemparuthi' and 'Aiyaa voodu' from 'Kadhalukku Mariyathai'. Note that both the second interludes take very natural digressions. There's a soulful lullaby-based lead+chorus with only flute backing in the first. The second breaks into a pulsating mode. Yet the leash is still not far off. அவ்ளோதாம்பா.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  V_S on Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:38 pm

Thanks App ji. I initially mentioned that song, and for no reason removed it. Here is another one which has two songs in one song. Complete paradigm shift during the interlude. Usha ji's favorite. AlaigalE vaa avarudan vaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTa9zEenWlU

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  V_S on Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:54 pm

Just wanted to add that Sri Rama Lera (Sri Rama Rajyam) has two different charanams (different tune).

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  V_S on Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:07 am

Ever gorgeous Sri Raghavendrar. Azhaikkiraan maadhavan (with no defined charanam, pallavi just carries with different shades), Mazhaikku oru dEvanE (a short verse), kathiravan ezhunthaan (with a pre-pallavi) of anbu enum manthiram pOthum with two different charanams, Rama Naamam (starts with classical lesson, a pallavi, a short charanam by Vani Jayaram, second different charanam and kalpanaswaram by KJY).

What about all those short songs in Sindu Bhairavi?

And my very favorite andam gidugidunga from Devathai (1997) with absolutely no structure.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  baroque on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:27 am

How about those teasing compositions like in Manvaasanai....adi mookiyaara mookkammaa..... Very Happy  &
Mudhal mariyadhai's hey kuruvi....!
Who can give compositions of this much fun! Very Happy

How about those classical compositions taking a detour with folklure touch!
Charanam waltz touch is romantic!
aye ayya saami.... varisham 16! I love you 



Varied genres interludes in one composition are several but still... One amazing Harikambhodhi ragam with classical and western interludes in 1st and 2nd respectively for Yesudas in Pazhamudhir Cholai.....Varusham 16!


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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  V_S on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:48 am

One of the most complex structuring with multiple scale (raagam) changes.
Pulargindra pozhuthu kaattu (Boopalam (Intro), Kalyani (Pallavi), Hamsanandi, Dharmavathi (1st Charanam), Hamsanandi, Vasantha/Chaayavathi (2nd Charanam))
Aganthayil aadukindra (Rasikapriya(Pallavi), Mayamalavagowlai (1st Charanam), Saveri (2nd Charanam), Chalanaatai (before 1st charanam))

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  baroque on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:50 am

thanks guys!
V_S, I will follow your last 2 mentions tonight!

   the percussion change with different styles interludes are many too!

Subhapantuvarali alaap composition vaa veliye......


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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  fring151 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:11 am

baroque wrote:thanks guys!
V_S, I will follow your last 2 mentions tonight!

   the percussion change with different styles interludes are many too!

Subhapantuvarali alaap composition vaa veliye......


Woah woah. How's that for free-flowing? SPB solra mAdhiri rAkshasan dhAn ivar. First time hearing too. Bet I missed a lot of subtle details, but the method even in the madness that is free-flow struck me even on a cursory listening. Bet the situation warranted it too.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  baroque on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:17 am

yeah... situational composition from the film Paadu Nilave!
Superb album!

Kalapani....Chithra with Raja's folk detour!


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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  fring151 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:20 am

V_S wrote:Thanks App ji. I initially mentioned that song, and for no reason removed it. Here is another one which has two songs in one song. Complete paradigm shift during the interlude. Usha ji's favorite. AlaigalE vaa avarudan vaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTa9zEenWlU

What a song! Incredible how people, even "Music reviewers" like BRangan take it or granted that IR never ventured outside the traditional structure. Another point where the sheer volume of his output works against him. Add to that sustained marketing, hype and propaganda for other MDs and one can see how one can even convince sheeple that western music = HJ.

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Re: Let's talk song-structuring

Post  baroque on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:31 am

list is endless....
Ghanashyama vrindaranyam....Kochu Kochu Santhoshangal... New age fusion in rag Kapi with varied rhythm!


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