Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

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Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:29 am

As Fring and I were having a discussion on raga Kalyani in another thread, the idea of starting a thread to discuss ragas and sharing examples from popular Hindustani/Carnatic and film music (inclusive and exclusive of Raaja) occurred and I am starting this thread here in the Music Miscellany section. I am not formally trained in classical music and have had training in Mridangam for a couple of years. That sparked some interest in music and over the years, I have developed a decent ear to music and with my கேள்வி ஞானம், I shall take a raga and discuss it over a week. I know the swara qualities of only a few ragas. It will be a drop in the ocean. Other experts like Suresh Ji can come in and add their knowledgeable insights and enrich this thread. Suresh ji writes on ragas in his blog focusing on Carnatic songs. He can surely enlighten us. If starting this thread in this section is okay, I shall begin by introducing what a raga is, its place in the Melakarta scale, what that is and then start discussing ragas.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  V_S on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:44 am

DM, Super! Kalakkunga. It should be a enlightening thread for novice like me. Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  fring151 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:44 am

Thanks Munk. This should be interesting! Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:34 am

Let me try to begin. Wiki defines raga as a melodic mode used in Indian Classical Music. Quite right. A raga is the melodic mode that gives the color/feel/essence to a song and the many modes can be called the many ragas. The next question that would arise is What makes a raga, how many ragas are there and how does one classify them? I will try taking it one by one.

A raga is made of a combination of swaras. To our knowledge, there are 7 swaras. Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni. Sa is repeated in the higher octave, we'll call it Sa' and forms the 8th note (not considered since it is a variation of the first one). Of these 7, 2 swaras, Sa and Pa, have not been created. A bit of peek into our belief is essential and if there are any non-believers, skeptics, kindly pardon and read along and enter your counter views, if any. Hinduism's holy grail is the Vedas. We believe that the Vedas are limitless and have no origin, like the Lord. They were discovered by rishis with their super natural powers and presented to us and among what was presented, we have them as 4 Vedas, classified by Krishna Dwaipayana (Krishna: black, Dwaipayana: born in a dweepa, an island), popularly called Veda Vyasa (Vyasa: classifier). Of the 4, Sama Veda is supposed to be musical. We believe that is where music originated in its primitive form and most of it comprises of Sa and Pa. Coming from the Vedas which are without origin, these swaras are also believed to just exist, or "be". These are also the chromatically most stable notes (no debate here). Those are called Prakriti Swaras (Prakriti: nature). Of course, with evolution, humans had found music through the sounds of nature and there came into existence something called music that man created, outside what was already there (Nothing But Wind's title track nails this effortlessly). Man hence created the remaining 5 swaras to expand on music, Ri Ga Ma Dha Ni. These aren't as stable as Sa and Pa and have different types and are called Vikriti swaras (Vikriti: artificial). I shall list them here:

Sa: Shadjamam; present in nature too as the scream of a peacock, only as Sa (S) and its higher variant Sa' (S').
Ri: Rishabam; as the name suggests, the bellow of an ox, present as Shudha Rishabam (R1), Chatshruti Rishabam (R2) and Shatshruti Rishabam (R3).
Ga: Gandharam; in nature as the bleat of a goat, present as Shudha Gandharam (G1), Sadharana Gandharam (G2) and Antara Gandharam (G3).
Ma: Madhyamam; in nature as the sound of a Crane, present as Shudha Madhyamam (M1) and Prati Madhyamam (M2). Remember this. This is key to the Melakarta scale.
Pa: Panchamam; in nature as a cuckoo's coo, present only as Panchamam (P).
Dha: Dhaivatham; in nature as a horse's neigh, present as Shudha Dhaivatham (D1), Chatshruti Dhaivatham (D2) and Shatshruti Dhaivatham (D3).
Ni: Nishadham; in nature as an elephant's trumpet, present as Shudha Nishadham (N1), Kaisiki Nishadham (N2) and Kaikali Nishadham (N3).

This makes it S, R1, R2, R3, G1, G2, G3, M1, M2, P, D1, D2, D3, N1, N2, N3 and S'. 16 notes in all but in 12 scales. R2 and G1 share the same pitch, R3 and G2 share the same pitch, D2 and N1 share the same pitch and D3 and N2 share the same pitch. That makes it 12 scales. Ilayaraaja states that these 12 scales are the 12 raasis Smile and goes on to state that a true Master such as Balamuralikrishna can sing 27 different swaras (I listed and know only 16) and those, he says are the 27 stars Smile So all this are the raw materials for a raga.

Ragas are countless. One cannot say how many of them exist (ராகங்கள் கோடி கோடி... Smile ). That can be explained by how they are classified. They are classified in the Melakarta scale. Mela was a system that was propagated in the mid 1500s and got a full form in the 1600s (the trinity of Muthuswami Dikshitar, Thyagaraja and Shyama Sastri were born in the late 1700s). So one can define the Melakarta scale as a definitive parent scale. There are 72 Melakarta ragas. Those are the parents of all the other ragas. Those are called the Janaka ragas. Their derivatives, or offsprings, are called Janya ragas.

The Janaka aka Melakarta ragas have to meet certain conditions to be so qualified. They must have all the 8 swaras (S, R (all 3 in cycles but only one in a raga), G (all 3 in cycles...), M (both in a broad category), P, D (all 3 in cycles...), N (all 3 in cycles...), S'). They must have all 8 and have only 1 of each. They must have all the 8 in order in both ascent (called aarOhaNam: S R G M P D N S') and descent (called avarOhaNam: S' N D P M G R S) and not zig-zagged. They must have the same notes in ascent and descent.

The Janya ragas should not qualify the above conditions. They are derived from the above ragas and must have less than or more than 8 swaras either in ascent or descent or both. The order can be zig-zagged with repetitions and the swaras in the ascent can be different from those in the descent. As you can see with 8 primary swaras from a Janaka raga, there a zillion possibilities of Janya ragas with the leverages. A raga with all 8 swaras is also called a Sampoorna raga (Sampoorna: complete). One with 6 swaras is called Shaadava raga and one with 5 swaras is called Oudava raga. As I said, ragas can be Shaadava in aarOhaNam and Oudava in avarOhaNam or vice versa or can have the same swara repeating across aarOhaNam or avarOhaNam or in both. The possibilities are limitless. Of course, the real deal is to compose a keertanai (song) in a possibly new raga (we can only discover) one seems to have discovered with all the qualities of that raga in that keertanai (GN Balasubramaniam, the first superstar of modern Carnatic Music discovered Saranga Tharangini thusly). Or one may even compose a keertanai and discover a new pattern that sounds like a new raga (Ilayaraaja discovered a raga he christened Raaja Lahiri, as it seemed close to Dhaivatha Lahiri with his name). Common perception is a raga may not have less than 5 swaras as it becomes a tough ask to be composing with that. But Balamuralikrishna has composed a raga, Mahathi, with only 4 swaras (which MSV used for Adhisaya Ragam in Aboorva RagangaL), as an exhibition of his mastery.

So we have an idea of what a Melakarta raga is about and what a Janya is about. The 72 parent ragas are further divided into 2 very broad categories, Shudha Madhyama ragas (SMR) and Prati Madhyama ragas (PMR). The first 36 are SMRs and the next 36 are PMRs, i.e. raga 1 and 37 are alike in every swara except the Madhyamam with the 1st having SM (M1) and the 37th having PM (M2). This continues with 2 and 38... down to 36 and 72. We have a broad difference between 36 pairs of ragas. However, the 36 can be divided into 6 chakras (cycles) with a name for each (not getting into those details) and 2 pairs of 36 makes it 12 chakras in all (6 in SMRs and 6 in PMRs). Each cycle has 6 ragas with each differing in only one of the 5 vikriti swaras). The next cycle will have 6 ragas which differ in a different vikriti swara. Thus the 6*2 = 12 cycles of 6 ragas make 36*2 = 72 ragas in Shudha Madhyamam and Prati Madhyamam. The Janyas are derived from these 72.

I hope this makes basic sense. Feel free to read and ask questions where you have doubts. I invite resident experts such as Raaga_Suresh to add insights. I shall take up a raga to begin with soon and discuss songs. We can understand each better (all is not humanly possible. We can cover as many as possible and share some of the best songs Smile ).

PS:  As for the point on Prakriti and Vikriti swaras I made, Thyagaraja has a composition called Nada Tanumanisham on Lord Shiva who describes as the form of Naadam (sound). He writes calling Shiva "sAmavEdam sAram vAram", the essence of SAma vEda (because it is music Smile ). He also calls Shiva "satyOjAtAdi pancha vakrtaja sarigamapadhani vara saptaswara", i.e. the 5 faces of Shiva, of which SatyOjAdam is one (EesAnam, Tatpurusham, Aghoram and VAmadEvam are the other 4), are the 7 swaras. We ought to think, kaNakku idikkudhE. He has 5 faces (pancha vakrataja) but Thyagaraja attributes 7 swaras to the 5 faces (vara saptaswara). Math doesn't tally. But the point is Prakriti swaras Sa and Pa originate from him since he is the source of Vedas (He is originless and coming from him, Vedas also ought to be originless and in fact, akin to His breath. Breath does not come to us after we are born. We breathe as we are born Razz ). Vikriti swaras, though man made also owe their source to Him since He made us. Hence, the phrase pancha vaktraja sarigamapadhani vara saptaswara makes perfect sense). I heard this explained by the seer of Kanchi, Chandrasekharendra Saraswati. I was curious. I looked at the raga in which Thyagaraja has composed the song in. He uses a raga called Chitaranjani, a derivative of Kharaharapriya, the 22nd Melakarta raga. The beauty is Chitaranjani is the only raga that exists which has exactly 7 swaras in ascent and descent and the ascent and descent are in order (S R G M P D N and N D P M G R S). How aptly does the raga's melody define the content of the song!!! That is the depth someone like a Thyagaraja brings even in the most simple compositions which reach us effortlessly. Listen to the song here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=734fDjHgLwE

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  fring151 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:05 am

Thanks for the detailed intro Munk. So far, so good (my following the lesson) Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  app_engine on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:40 pm

Very nice & detailed explanation!

mikka nanRi, DM!

Waiting for the first rAgA to be picked and discussed...(means, waiting in ROM Laughing )

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:05 am

I'll start with my favorite raga, Kalyani.

It is a sampoorna raga aka a Melakarta raga (65th, coming in the Prati Madhyama division, being the 29th Prati Madhyama ragam), having 8 swaras in order in aarOhaNam: S R2 G3 M2 P D2 N3 S' and avarOhaNam: S' N3 D2 P M2 G3 R2 S. In my opinion, it is the D2 that offers it a beautiful flavor and helps differentiate it from mistakable ragas such as Lathangi and Vachaspathi. For a nice comparison between Kalyani and the ragas it can be mistaken for, head here: http://www.ragasurabhi.com/carnatic-music/raga-comparision/comparison-of-ragas--kalyani-and-vachaspati-and-lathangi.html

This is normally an evening raga, as in, elders have stated this raga is ideally sung in the evenings. It's a very pleasant raga and is also a favorite of poet Vaali (as he claims in the composing session of Kaatril Varum Geethame to IR) Smile

The 29th Melakarta raga is Shankarabharanam (29th also in Sudha Madhyamam scale) and Kalyani is the 29th in the Prati Madhyamam and the 65th in the Melakarta scale, meaning Madhyamam (M1 in Shankarabharanam and M2 in Kalyani) is the only difference between the 2. It's full name is Mecha Kalyani and the way the 1st names are kept has a direct bearing on their place in the Melakarta scale. Ma in the Devanagiri script is the 5th in its order (pa, fa, ba, bha, ma) and cha is the 6th in its line (ka, kha, ga, gha, nga, cha). Mecha is hence 56. Juxtaposing it, we get 65 and its place in the Melakarta scale. Shankarabharanam's full name is DHeera Shankarabhanam and DHa is the 9th in its row (ta, Ta, da, Da, Na, tha, THa, dha, DHa) and ra is the second in its (ya, ra, la, va, sha, SHa, sa, ha). Dheera is hence 92 and juxtaposing it, we get 29. I read this in my sister's music note when she was briefly going for music classes a few years back. Sounds cool4 

A Carnatic composition to explain Kalyani, sung by GN Balasubramaniam, the first superstar of Carnatic Music: Vasudevayani

My most favorite film song is Mannavan Vandhanadi Thozhi, Thiruvarutchelvar, composed by KV Mahadevan, sung by P Susheela and written by the inimitable Kannadasan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-y-J9Pabq8 Simply the greatest Kalyani ever composed in Indian films IMNSHO Wink . Not a note is an anya swara (foreign note, for films allow you to adlib, i.e. at liberty where in even half a note can be used to explain an emotion and there is no restriction. Yet, this song sounds infinitely beautiful yet is a pristine Kalyani. Scintillating stuff from KVM!).

I especially love this song to bits for Kannadasan's impossibly brilliant lyrics. This song singularly made me respect him as a 17 yr old all those years back. The insanely brilliant P Susheela's tune singing the song and the konakkols (thi thangida tharikita thoms kind of phrase jadhis) with Padmini dancing brilliantly and Sivaji oozing lust out of every pore is a sight for the Gods. Yet it is Kannadasan who steals the show. viraivinil nee நீ (notice that it is the nedil nee and the swara is N3, the highest register of Nishadham (Ni), sung usually as Ni in a high pitch but our poet gives it a nedil usage to explain a swara in a language! (English calls it N3. Why can Tamil not call it நீ?)), maNamalar thaa தா, thirumaarba பா, thaamadhamaa? மா, mayil ennaik kaa(ka) கா. viraivinil nee maNamalar thaa thirumaarba thaamadhama? mayil ennaik kaa. நீ தா பா மா க, நிதபமக (hands it back to the swaras). What genius in writing a beautiful line where the dancer sings invoking the Lord which the King feels is due to him and lusts while the poet hands it to the musicality by bringing a swara at the end of every line. But this is not the real deal. What follows is a knock out of the park.

Sa - Sadhamadhu Thalaiva Ri - Rigamapadhanisa Ga - KaruNaiyin Thalaiva (the குழையல் from PS there is infinitely lovely) Ma - Madhimigu Mudhalva. Pa - ParamporuL iRaivA Dha - Thanimaiyil Varava? Ni - NiRai aruL peRavA? He doesn't list the swaras now but he has given a full form for Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni from KVM's Kalyani with his pen where the singer invokes God and the King takes it personally. All with the konnakOls between every line with KVM's exquisite composition thrown at us in all its beauty. Apparently Kannadasan never thinks to write and words just come out of him. This is the equivalent of Ilayaraaja in lyrics. Infinite genius. Can't praise this song enough.

Coming back to Kalyani in films, Ilayaraaja made it mainstream and has been its greatest exponent in Indian films. I say this because there have been over 50 compositions in Kalyani alone from Ilayaraaja but every time he takes this raga, it sounds new. The raga has the usual 8 swaras in ascent and descent. The travel he takes us through every time in this raga is stuff of genius. To make this sound new every time you take it up across close to 4 decades is rivaling the composing class of a Thyagaraja.

List of songs IR has composed in Kalyani with a link for every song. Listen to them at pleasure.

Aararo Aararo
Adhisaya Nadamidum Abhinaya Saraswatiyo
Akkuthikkuthu
Amma Endrazhaikaadha
AruL Thavazhum (Guru Ramana Geetham)
Chamber Welcomes Thyagaraja (HTNI): My all time favorite Kalyani from Raaja
Sharanam Bhava Karunamayi (not 100% Kalyani but qualifies)
Nanna Jeeva Neenu
Ennai Oruvan Paada Sonnaan
Ilavattam Kai Thattum
Janani Janani
Kaatril Varum Geethame
Kalaivaaniye Unai Thaane (song has only aarOhaNam)
Konjam Sangeetham Katru Thaa
Kottarakettile (Raaga_Suresh's favorite. The travel with Kalyani in under 2 minutes is indeed remarkable)
Malayoram Mayile. Very special song. Incredible subtlety from Raaja. I wrote on it in detail here.
Mandhaara Poo Moodi
Manjal Veyyil Maalai Itta Poove
Naan Enbadhu Nee Allavo
Naan Paada Varuvaai. Incredible Kalyani.
Nadhiyil Aadum Poovanam
Nirpadhuve Nadappadhuve (doesn't get better).
Om Namo Nama Yavvanamma
Poonkatinodum Kilikalodum
Radha Azhaikkiraal
Siru Koottula. Another favorite of Suresh ji Smile
Sundari Kannal Oru Sedhi. Blends Kosalam in the charanam is an incredible experiment which screams only Raaja possible out of every micro second. Wrote on it here.
Suramodamu
Unnai Naan Parkaiyil. Loveliness!
Vaa Kathirukka Neramillai
Vaidehi Raman. Graha bEdhams to Thodi ragam very briefly towards in the one awesome travel.
Vaishnava Janato, Hey Ram
Vandhal Mahalakshmiye
Vellai Pura Onru (Incredibly Happy and incredibly Sad).
Vizhigal Meeno Mozhigal Theno
Vizhiye Vilakkondru Etru
Mizhiyil Meen Pidanju
Vaanam Enge
Ennakkoru Annai
Enakkul Iruppadhu
Saranam Bhava Saranam (Baba Pugazh Maalai)
ParamporuL ThaanE Arunachalam. Also as Maa Ganga Kashi Padhari in Naan Kadavul.
Iniya Gaanam

I end my list here. There are many lovely Kalyanis by many masters and I was partial to Raaja here with a reason and I'm sure you folks won't mind. Not one song sounds similar to another. Each one is a masterpiece. Incredible is the word that quite fails to define his Kalyanis. Beyond genius is the right phrase because he accurately describes love, naughtiness, bhakti, affection, pathos, lust, hope, hopelessness, dream worlds, family and every contrasting emotion in essentially the same raga with some much beauty every time. Happy listening Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Usha on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:31 pm

DM,
   So nice.............  Kalyani...... Madhyamavthi,  Mayamalavagowla... indha ragam elllam.. IR paatu kaetu dhan
kathunden..........  Carnatic pattu kaetal, IR paatu enna iruku nu resemblance iruka nu parthu.. aparam.. indha carnatic  pattu enna ragam.... apo indha IR pattum idhae dhan nu ragam perai ai nyabagam vechupen....... IR paatai kaetadhal
dhan carnatic paatu kaeka arambichen...  adharku munnadi.. Radio vil...  carnatic paatu ..  kaeka maten........ Vaazhga IR... Valarga avar Thondu......  

ana.............

idhuku melae.. swaram nyanam.. vara matengaradhu.......  indha birth la ivvvalavu dhan kodupinai...........

some more kalyani............. and its details...........

http://thambura.wordpress.com/

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Usha on Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:27 pm

Unnai naan parkaiyil  -KJY  -  kalyani ragam romba nalla theiryum.... apadi oru Instrumentation......... indha version il.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFBE7u0BWNg


indha 2 paatum kalyani ya.......

Oru malai chandiran  - Unnai vaazhthi padugiren

http://www.paadalgal.com/2013/05/unnai-vazhthi-padugiren-1992-tamil-mp3.html

Unnai padadha oru - SPB  - Irattai roja


http://shakthi.fm/ta/player/play/s4d0ca3eb


Amirthamai

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVaVpWWjxw

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:09 pm

Usha ji,

Yes. Thanks. ellaame Kalyani dhaan. Also, a song in Bhagyadevatha is Kalyani. Sung by Karthik. Aazhi Thira Thannil.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Usha on Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:37 pm

Thank u DM............

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  app_engine on Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:10 pm

Great article on kalyANi, DM!

applause 

I especially loved your description of my all-time-fav 'mannavan vandhAnadi' - the sweet KVM-PS number!

Please continue your great series!!

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:47 pm

Thanks app ji. This is an educational video on Kalyani. Takes the Vasudevayani I quoted and a song whose charanam is in Kalyani (totally unexpected trip) on to another classic and back to Vasudevayani. Do listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgpJimdlIj4&feature=player_embedded Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:22 am

Thanks for the Kalyani list DM. One doubt - The raagam is not just about the aarohanam and avarohanam patterns right? You mention that D2 and M2 are important swaras for Kalyani, so does this mean that to bring out its flavour these notes must appear frequently throughout the composition, and is there any hard and fast rule on this? What about rules for gamakams?

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:45 am

fring151 wrote:Thanks for the Kalyani list DM. One doubt - The raagam is not just about the aarohanam and avarohanam patterns right? You mention that D2 and M2 are important swaras for Kalyani, so does this mean that to bring out its flavour these notes must appear frequently throughout the composition, and is there any hard and fast rule on this? What about rules for gamakams?
Not necessarily. Folks say the jeeva swara of Kalyani is Ga (G3). So that way, every swara is important for a raga. Because without a swara, the raga lakshanam (characteristic) can change. D2 and M2 helps differentiate it from ragas with similar swara patterns.

It is not very essential that all notes ought to appear frequently throughout a song. and you are right in saying that it is not only about aarohanam and avarohanam. If that were the case, it would not be possible for Raaja to create a song without avarohanam. Composers come up with ways to creatively use swaras. The 8 swaras can be rearranged or repeated intelligently in a song. As long as all the swaras appear and appear as their accurate respective notes (as in D2, M2 for Kalyani), the raga's quality will be retained. After that, it is the composer's creativity to bring out an intelligent/creative song. Because how much ever you compose in a raga, after a point, ஒரு தொய்வு வரும். You do begin to sound jaded, especially in a commercial entity like films where you need to package a song to suit market needs. That IR is able to ride both horses is a wonder for me personally. This is very evident in the way he uses Kalyani and everything from his tunes to his orchestrations sound unique in Kalyani every time he uses it.

And because it is films, composers need not stick strictly to the raga they happen to compose in. They can bring in anya swaras (foreign notes) and in cinema, it is totally permissible because their prime motive is to service what is to be depicted on screen in the best possible way they can. However, for a purist, it might be bad. Subbudu remarked that raga Kedaram underwent extensive sedhaaram in EnnavaLe adi EnnavaLe. That it is a mellifluous (Razz ) song did not appeal to Subbudu. He is a purist and remarks on the way a raga was used. Not saying Subbudu was right or wrong here. Just quoting an example to say perspectives to look at music differs based on where we come from. Raaja doesn't stick 100% to one raga in one song every time. But there are also several instances of him doing that. Hence it becomes difficult to box him under one basket. He is outstanding in the way he marries a traditional form of art without diluting its values with a commercial entity like cinema while being in cinema. KVM was an exception in creating Carnatically pure bred songs for films.

And a gamaka is just a variation of a note. The same note when sung with vibratos becomes a gamakam.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Usha on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:37 pm

DM,

  2 more Kalyani from Raja...... correct dhanae...

Mudhal mutham mogam  - Puthir

http://tamilmusica.org/P/Puthir/1599

2. Parathen pon manam  - SJ

http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=264471&mode=100&rand=0.5815378078259528

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:59 pm

Absolutely Kalyani. First song kEttadhillai idhu varaikkin. Listening to Paarthen Pon Manam after eons. Also portions of Enna Samayalo (which is a Ragamalika), and by extension, its original from Manipur Mamiyar, Samayal Paadame.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Usha on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:42 pm

THanks a lot DM...........

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:20 pm

The forum has been a little inactive on this front. Just wish to set the pace going. This was a wonderful video that I came across. Wonderful for us because it takes up pairs of ragas and plays them on a violin (one HK Venkatram). He takes up ragas that differ by only 1 note in each pair:
 

So I just thought I'd list the pairs of ragas he's taken, link a carnatic and film song from the ragas and you can all listen:
Mohanam: Carnatic: Ninnukkori Varnam. Film: Well, Ninnukkori Varnam Smile
Sivaranjani: Carnatic: Tharunam Idhaya (Papanasam Sivan song). Film: Unnai Thaane
And Valli Valli Ena Vandhaan has liberal doses of Sivaranjani and Mohanam Smile Maestro!

Simmhendramadhyamam: Carnatic: Asaindhaadum Mayil Ondru Film: Anandha Ragam
Subhapanthuvaraali: Carnatic: Ennalu Urake Film: Aayiram Thaamarai Mottukkale

Madhyamavathi: Carnatic: Vinayakuni Film: Aagaya Gangai
Revathi: Bho Shambo Shiva Shambo Film: Kanavu Onru Thonrudhe

He ends it with Hamsanandhi. I shall just link a piece of TN Seshagopalan speaking on the Carnatic masters and comparing Ilayaraaja to them stating great minds think alike using Hamsanandhi:



முத்தாய்ப்பு: W.r.t Vinayakuni, I remember reading a discourse by Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati who spoke on what made Thyagaraja write the song he did and compose in the raga he did. He himself says he is postulating and guessing and this could be a reason but I find that very interesting and hence am sharing it to end this. The song is on Kamakshi but Thyagaraja starts it Vinayaka's name. The theory is in Kanchi Kamakshi Temple, across the sanctum sanctorum, inside and outside, there are a number of Vinayaka engravings surrounding Kamakshi and that may have caught Thyagaraja's attention as he pays a visit. Hence he begins it as Vinayakuni, asking the Goddess to take care of everyone the way she takes care of her son Vinayaka. As for Madhyamavathi, it is another name for Kamakshi (Madhyamam is the central portion and it refers here to her hips, stating she has beautiful hips) Smile Also, it might be likely that he paid a visit in the morning and was back resting in the afternoon when he might have composed this to sing it in front of her in the evening. SCS stops here. I take it a little further because Madhyamavathi is a raga that is sung in the afternoons (Madhyamam is the central portion and afternoon is the central timezone in a day. That aside, there are ragas for daytimings, like IR refers here, though disagreeing, and Madhyamavathi is believed to be suited for the afternoon). So the theory is rounded and makes sense though it's only a theory and can never be proved Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  fring151 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:12 am

A little late to respond, but I did finally watch the video. Nice demo! Thanks for sharing it here. Smile  I have seen that video of TNS talking about Hamsanandi and IR. 

I have heard elsewhere that IR has not composed in Bhairavi. It is likely to be pure speculation, nonetheless any theories on why?

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:45 am

You are right. I am not aware of him composing any song in Bhairavi. No idea why. He has composed countless songs in its parent raga, Natabhairavi, but not one I can recall in Bhairavi. Similarly, people say he has not composed a song in Sahana. He has composed a Ragamalika (any song with 1+ raga in it with a deliberate attempt to make it so is a Ragamalika unlike the pointless deviations in film music) which had a brief Sahana for a song which comes as a stage drama on Harischandran in the film Thunai Iruppaal Meenakshi. So technically he has used Sahana in a film song. Also, there is the pretty brilliant scene in Unnal Mudiyum Thambi where Kamal takes leave of his brother and sister-in-law with an engulfing Sahana playing in the background. Being a KB film, it became predictable though later on (Rayil Sneham had an Indha Veenaiki Theriyadhu by VS Narasimhan, a serial itself named Sahana with the title track in Sahana and Sindhu Bhairavi composed by Sathya and an Anbe Sugama in Parthale Paravasam in Dwijavanthi and Sahana by ARR).

Let me see if I can upload the Ragamalika with Sahana on youtube Smile

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:54 pm

Uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1OxmoxwtAY&feature=youtu.be Smile

The kaalai ezhundhurindhu portion is Sahana.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  fring151 on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:06 am

http://www.s-anand.net/blog/classical-ilayaraja-8/

This is an old article I have read which holds this - not having composed in Bhairavi - against him, which in my view is unfair. Besides he says IR 'failed miserably' in this aspect which is a very poor choice of words. If not attempting something is failure, by the same logic, Einstein failed miserably in fluid mechanics and Ramanujan was a failure in algebraic geometry as both of them didn't make any useful contributions in these fields.

The author IS a big IR fan and the series is entertaining to read and has a lot of good info, but he very disappointingly concludes it by (as usual) bringing up IR's arrogance and proceeds to give a lecture on the futility of conceit. The irony.

http://www.s-anand.net/blog/classical-ilayaraja-15/

In other articles too, there are uncalled for comments and aspersions on why there must be a scale change between pallavi and charanam, why he must compose only in Arohanam only etc. I don't understand why some people can't respect the individual philosophy of a composer and appreciate innovations, risk taking and experimentation rather than questioning the necessity of these things.

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  V_S on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:12 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:Uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1OxmoxwtAY&feature=youtu.be Smile

The kaalai ezhundhurindhu portion is Sahana.
Super upload DM. I don't remember listening to this song. Thanks a lot Very Happy

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Re: Ragas and Their Usages in Indian Popular Music

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:39 am

fring151 wrote:http://www.s-anand.net/blog/classical-ilayaraja-8/

This is an old article I have read which holds this - not having composed in Bhairavi - against him, which in my view is unfair. Besides he says IR 'failed miserably' in this aspect which is a very poor choice of words. If not attempting something is failure, by the same logic, Einstein failed miserably in fluid mechanics and Ramanujan was a failure in algebraic geometry as both of them didn't make any useful contributions in these fields.

The author IS a big IR fan and the series is entertaining to read and has a lot of good info, but he very disappointingly concludes it by (as usual) bringing up IR's arrogance and proceeds to give a lecture on the futility of conceit. The irony.

http://www.s-anand.net/blog/classical-ilayaraja-15/

In other articles too, there are uncalled for comments and aspersions on why there must be a scale change between pallavi and charanam, why he must compose only in Arohanam only etc. I don't understand why some people can't respect the individual philosophy of a composer and appreciate innovations, risk taking and experimentation rather than questioning the necessity of these things.
Read his blogs 5-6 yrs back. Rants too much. Very opinionated. Nothing wrong. avar blog, avar opinions. enakku oththu varala. romba padikkala adhukkapparam. Regarding arrogance, LOL Very Happy arrogance, arrogance nu sollittu, avar opinion dhaan right'ndra level la neraya ezhudhiruppAr. Well left.

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