Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Usha on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:57 pm

Raaga Suresh,

  IR's raagam...... really Great Works.  ethanai varieties....  idhilum. Feelings, Situtations and The Characters endru
oru  Rules il dhan irukum. analum....... ethanai vidham. nichayam repeat aga irukadhu.....................


ONe more Great point of IR's Music...........  Sound ai control pannina oru Music Director..........S. He is a Great
Controller of the Sound..........

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  V_S on Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:18 pm

The understanding and coinage is very interesting. First of all we are not talking about "ராஜாவின் இசை வீச்சு". Are we? Second, "எம்.எஸ்.வி, ரஹ்மான் தங்கள் இசையால் பெற்ற புகழ்மாலைகளின்". Are we mainly discussing about the fame they got in their music? Both are NO. We are talking entirely about each other's style to reinstate why and how Maestro does not belong to this series? Some analogies are only pointers to each others' output. Irrespective of one's output some are known more than others which is absolutely true. You ask someone in North about ILaiyaraaja or MSV, many may not have any clue, but ask about ARR, they will know. Is that not true? How this can be 'சேறள்ளி(வழக்கம்போல) பூசுகிறார்கள்'. 'வழக்கம்போல', as if we are doing this all the time. Very superficial and blunt argument (can I say as usual?). I would say, this is the most dignified conversation and discussion we are having in a forum, discussing mostly musical aspects. Certainly there would be concerns (as fans) when someone who is undeserving'ly gets credit, but did this discussion in any way go down in its level?

When we experienced huge amount of humiliation in that forum, did any one like him speak on behalf of Raja? When they were generously pouring hatred like copy cat, oosi pOna saadham, humpty dumpty, embarrassing to the core, should retire, the whole crap of NEPV thread (in TF section), agenda driven posts in IR forum etc, not even giving the respect to the age and experience of a human (leave alone his musical aspects) who came to save Raja? They were silently watching the fun smiling inside as if they have achieved something big. Who got hurt? Just be in our (his) shoes to really know the pain and how much this genius (and his fans) is undergoing humiliation in all quarters, having given his life to music.

This thread is not in any way to hurt or humiliate anyone. This thread will at-least serve as an eye-opener to those who really rate Maestro so cheap and for those who want to know more about Maestro's MUSIC. This thread will serve as our outlet as a tribute to Maestro and his accomplishments. If anyone feels uncomfortable, please stay away, please don't stir and spread unnecessary and irrelevant comments.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:06 pm

After years of tiring diplomacy diplaayuhu, i can stand up and say, MSV reject, ARR rejett, Only IR select - saeraLLi veesa thevaye Illai.
They both pale in comparison to the towering sun of talent that Raaja is, a true phenomenon - tired of playing the idiot who thinks 
being diplomatic and appearing supposedly 'neutral' is a great credential. Hell no - Fact is this man's name has to be uttered along with 
shites like Kollywood, thamizh films, thamizh nadu, etc., just to give a locale context. Though this thread is going good - I dont see any good coming out of it anymore.
Sani paarvai pattaachunna more diplomacy dhaan minjum - lock the thread, archive it for it is sufficiently clearly proven that no other composer doing kutcheri
 in the name of meesik director has done/attempted even 10% of what this man has done and has been doing. Let me conclude by saying 'warnings to those who try to arrange 
composers sequence by saying MSV-IR-ARR - Thats horse dung unadulterated. Raaja stands alone in his elated stratosphere and that is not because he has got thamizh naattu fans 
die hard following or anything, purely because he is pure talent ever shining - everlasting. Simple enough - he made his personal life very rigid, wore the cloak of arrogance in a
 hall filled with naked fools so that he could labor on with his quest for getting to the source of his music. He continues the tread in that path inspiring millions of music lovers and students on this way. and thanks for that..

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  V_S on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:23 pm

Well said Jai. Really tired of all this. If the thread title itself is very clear that Maestro is light years ahead of others, the discussion will also be to prove that one right? How come one can even expect every one should be given equal credit?. Even we do so where-ever applicable, this is becoming too tedious to address every time.pale silent

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:59 pm

Simple enough - he made his personal life very rigid, wore the cloak of arrogance in a
 hall filled with naked fools
so that he could labor on with his quest for getting to the source of his music. He continues the tread in that path inspiring millions of music lovers and students on this way. and thanks for that.

 rotfl3
At the same time, one cannot help but feel sorry for the great man. As if that wasn't enough, friendship with back-biting, "be humble" advise-giving veshis like BR and the dumb masses and agenda driven media who demand geniuses to exhibit fake humility and label them arrogant if they don't. It is a marvel what he has achieved despite all this. We can only take solace in the fact that he is by no means the first genius in history to be misunderstood or maligned during their lifetime...

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:07 am

adadA, nAn avasiyam illAdha vishayaththai izhuththuttEnO?
Embarassed

shAnthi shAnthi makkaLE Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:44 am

fring151 wrote:We can only take solace in the fact that he is by no means the first genius in history to be misunderstood or maligned during their lifetime...





Kalaiya paththi solrAr. Idhukku mEla solla oNNum illa.

Also reminded of Kamal's speech in Andrum Indrum Endrum Raaja for Jaya TV's 2005 concert. He said your precise point.

http://splicd.com/_fBx01gQvWs/1436/1605

That's all baa.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:49 am

V_S,

Don't get emotional Smile (In Vadivelu's coice, "Cool Down, Cool Down")
 
Jai,

LOL at your comments. That probably is the most straight-from-heart response. And yes, when it comes to Raja being neutral is not a virtue.

Coming to the thread itself, I think it is fine if we keep analyzing more music of different MDs. It will give some idea to many as to why we consider Raja to be head and shoulders above anyone else in Indian Film Music.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:19 am

indha thread'kum seri, especially indha charchaikkum seri, Plum vandhu than karuththa therivippAr nu edhirpArkkarEn. Innum nalla kaLa kattum. Waiting Basketball

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:31 am

Ramesh Vinayagam on the BGM in a pivotal scene in Nayagan. Just seeing him describe is a joy. But look at him go on to talk on the adlibbing, thaalam, raagam, registers, tone, instruments, etc at the end. I'm very sure IR would have taken only the time he speaks to construct and write the entire score. Infinite genius. Again, best possible example for why he stands alone and tall and it being reinforced thus:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=605816779449842&set=vb.541680632534142&type=2&theater

It's an FB video. I hope everyone can access it as it is made public.

Just my two cents upon what RV adds (read this after you have seen the video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6V37q60yY4#t=6m27s

This is after Neela dies. The guitar runs the usual theme. But the violins are heavier and ring at a much more audible decibel and drown the guitar. Neela is a memory now. Her memory is being drowned in the sorrow and anger over her death and murder. The violins that sound heavy are also dark and morbid for this reason and they drown the guitars expressing the tender theme applicable for Neela. So many colors, so many layers and so many many subtexts. All for 1 scene. Layers which other MDs might not achieve but are inherent in the scene which even the director may not envision. Infinite genius.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  kamalaakarsh on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:49 am

All,

 Interesting thoughts here. There are few reasons why I am not contributing to this thread although I read some posts occasionally. They are:

1. The title of the thread seems as if this thread is an answer to someone's claim that IR is merely a bridge between MSV and ARR. So, assuming that there is a claim (by whoever it may be) in first place, I find it absolutely weird because forget giving an answer, I want to throw this very claim/hypothesis out of the window. Given the quality and quantity of work done by IR, he cannot be placed there merely on the basis of few parameters. In short, the claim itself is not admitted in my court, forget giving a response.

2. IR is the MOST special film composer (non-film too if we take HTNI alone, but let's keep that for another day) ever born in India. The length and breadth (and diagonal and circles and whatever) of experiments are huge. absolutely huge. To give an answer to the hypothesis/claim suggested in the thread title, one must first kick his job and do a thesis on his complete work. A thesis like a proper research student, who sacrifices years and years to one thesis. And I am not even talking about music knowledge of the researcher here - which again is a must. If I start listing out the elements of his music, which are worthy to be researched, it will take a very very long list. Like how Ravi Natarajan did some research on chord patterns, rhythm patterns, folk chorus, western chorus, poly rhythm, harmonies, classical chorus, permutations and combinations between these, etc etc etc (he has so many blogposts touching various themes into which he bucked Raaja songs. check them out).

Honestly, I feel most of the posts here in this thread are discussing one element each and proving the genius of IR. fair enough and no offence meant to the efforts of each of you. I myself am enjoying some posts a lot. But the no. of elements which require such discussions and no. if songs covering each of those elements are so many that you will continue discussing even after 6-7 years. :-) and by then Raaja will (god bless) turn up with more material.

Forget between MSV, ARR - Raaja is NOT just another great composer between composers of any era, school and language, about whose work we music illiterate people can write half-baked posts, to disprove a silly claim by some arbit guy. He is huge. His work is huge. His quality is huge. His vision is esoteric. His execution is unique. His ideas are pathbreaking. 

This is not to belittle the efforts of every member here. I am fine with discussions on songs and all. But it feels a bit odd that every post is trying a nail the point that he is NOT a composer between MSV & ARR. I do not like the motive of the discussion. for me, it is a pointless claim and there is no reason to try hard. Apologies if my comments do not go well with people here.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:41 pm

kamalaakarsh wrote:
In short, the claim itself is not admitted in my court

Agree totally!

However, unlike you (taking the position of a judge dismissing / throwing away the claim - due to having musical training), me a mere pAmaran / kai nAttu cannot do that sir Smile

In addition, I want to do my little part in "preserving the history" against many powerful forces trying to distort it!

Take a current example, a commercial program watched by many TN-ers on Vijay TV (that claims to be searching for the next greatest voice in TN)! There's a very clear concentrated, deliberate attempt to do away with the name of rAsA!

This is just one of the many attempts right from 1992 on rAsA! Why, even last year, on the same TV, there was a 'neeyA nAnA' program where they named it "80's music", with participants strictly told not to mention rAsA Shocked

And, please believe me, they have been successful to a great extent in making a segment of TN-ers believe that IR was just another musician. We cannot simply dismiss the impact of such propaganda, saying, "great music will transcend time period, future will tell" etc.

We don't know how many great things in the past have been erased from history by calculated efforts of powers. We simply believe that whatever happens, quality will prevail. Well, that may be true in some cases (miracles do happen) but may not be applicable in EACH AND EVERY case.

Also, even if we take "those specials that prevailed attacks on them", there had always been CONSCIOUS EFFORT by some - however weak they had been in the society may be - only helped retaining the treasures and getting the eventual recognition they deserved.

That way, this thread is an attempt by some simpleton -who is not sitting on a powerful position to control the society / industry / media etc - but seriously interested in salvaging the history Smile


Last edited by app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:10 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:45 pm

Also, please look at the quality of discussions that have so far resulted in this thread!

Comparable to the best of the discussions ever happened on tfmpage or dhool, IMHO!

That way, whatever happened to be the trigger point - the immense musical knowledge shared by the educated ones on this thread is a terrific feast for people like me Smile

And, I'm a glutton for such food Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:53 pm

Due to such political reasons alone, I'm personally happy that NEPV happened. (Even though it would have been better had the movie succeeded commercially, that album was still the best thing to happen under the circumstances, from a TN PoV).

Also, that launch function by Gautam was a huge relief from all the nonsense propaganda going on otherwise in the TN media! (I guess that has pushed the opposite camp also to intensify their efforts, which is a natural reaction Laughing)

So, I strongly feel this thread is justified - this forum being the most active one for IRF's - to defend and establish rAsA's position in the history Smile

It's definitely a pleasure to see youngsters active here (Drunkenmunk & fring151) and hopefully the thread will continue to be visible to more TN souls on the web Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:47 pm

Kamalaakarsh and App Saars,

Both of you raise very valid points. I personally feel this thread is definitely worth continuing and preserving for the following reasons (in addition to what App has already said):

1) First of all, I believe that this is not merely a discussion to reinforce our (forummers) belief or opinion that he is the greatest musical phenomenon to happen in this country (yes, carnatic trinity included IMO). The very fact that most posts have largely stuck to facts, musical aspects, expert analysis of composition styles and song structures such as Raaga_Suresh's goes to show that this is one of the most mature discussions on the internet on the evolution of IFM.

2) Many people (particularly youth) have no idea why IR is a genius. They have no clue what music-composition is, how IR composes and how that is different from the way others operate. So they tend to think he was just another TFM MD in the 80s.The more we document the FACTS which clearly demonstrate his genius, the more the awareness of his unique position is likely to be in the future.

3) This, along with other threads and blogs) can easily form the basis of good wikipedia articles or master-blogs as Ravinat and I have floated around here. This will again immensely increase interest and serious study of his work by serious musicians worldwide in the future.

4) Mis-conception about 'modern' and 'fusion' music among the masses. V_S ji has already nailed this one. Nothing further to say on this.

App saar, I don't follow Neeya Naana or Airtel super singer. The few times I used to catch a glimpse of these shows, couple of years ago, I remember there used to be a lot of IR songs. Kobinath even hosted the 'Idhayam thotta isaignani' series on Vijay right? Has this changed recently? And who are the vested interest parties this time?

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  V_S on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:53 pm

Thanks Aakarsh for your wonderful post beautifully summarizing Maestro. the clap

But I agree with app ji (excellent points app ji the clap), as there are so many vested interests (especially in TN) which we see daily trying to erase Maestro's achievements and just reduce him to another composer. The main claim came from three main offenders who started to write blogs only to do this. Apart from that, as app ji said, there are recent media and TV shows desperately making an attempt to nullify his efforts by not mentioning his name and also not favoring his compositions, even if the show cannot run without his compositions. Because of these false propaganda and  injected poisons, the youths, especially the contestants/aspiring singers/music enthusiasts/amateurs etc and mostly the common man who watches TV or read internet might even think the same way as elders are saying so and form an early opinion about Maestro which might never change in their lifetime afterwards. I feel that's the success of all these vested interests. As we have also experienced many times especially in forums, 'small' blogs in a bitter way that how they try to equate Maestro as just another composer. In that aspect this thread becomes very important and we need to highlight his contributions and establish why he is in a different league.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:03 pm

fring151 wrote:
App saar, I don't follow Neeya Naana or Airtel super singer. The few times I used to catch a glimpse of these shows, couple of years ago, I remember there used to be a lot of IR songs. Kobinath even hosted the 'Idhayam thotta isaignani' series on Vijay right? Has this changed recently? And who are the vested interest parties this time?

Me actually not a TV watcher - just happened to watch the super singer youtubes during the recent visit of my sis (a TV regular) and continue with the same series on youtube nowadays - simply because many IR songs get featured by the participants (even though the channel & judges would love to have them eliminated altogether IMO).

That "80's music" neeyA nAnA was a year back and our fellow forumer was a participant and it seems they were told not to mention rAsA's name Laughing

First of all, the very idea of making it "80's music" is some kind of effort to hide rAsA name by the channel.


Their 'idhayam thotta isaignAni' was definitely a commercial compromise (perhaps because Jaya TV did tremendous TRP rating with NEPV show and IR-Chennai-concert or they sensed some rAsA-wave-coming-back or something like that), in connection with the original Toronto show (that unfortunately didn't happen and got postponed by some other political interests).

Well, these fellows (all of them - kumudam / vikatan / vijay tv / jaya tv / sun tv etc) won't mention rAsA unless they smell moolA in it.

OTOH, the same channels had to use his music for day-to-day survival!

What an irony Laughing
(Even in that very SS4 program, often the "theme music" comes from popular rAsA songs such as 'iLamai idhO idhO' but the nonsense judges maRandhum avar pEr solla mAttAngaLAm...funny situation!)

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:43 pm

We don't know how many great things in the past have been erased from history by calculated efforts of powers. We simply believe that whatever happens, quality will prevail. Well, that may be true in some cases (miracles do happen) but may not be applicable in EACH AND EVERY case.

Well said, particularly given our notoriously poor documentation compared to westerners.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:06 pm

But I agree with app ji (excellent points app ji ), as there are so many vested interests (especially in TN) which we see daily trying to erase Maestro's achievements and just reduce him to another composer. The main claim came from three main offenders who started to write blogs only to do this. Apart from that, as app ji said, there are recent media and TV shows desperately making an attempt to nullify his efforts by not mentioning his name and also not favoring his compositions, even if the show cannot run without his compositions. Because of these false propaganda and  injected poisons, the youths, especially the contestants/aspiring singers/music enthusiasts/amateurs etc and mostly the common man who watches TV or read internet might even think the same way as elders are saying so and form an early opinion about Maestro which might never change in their lifetime afterwards.

Kamalaakarsh,

When a real genius is belittled and maligned in this manner and lesser composers (however good they might be) are raved about constantly in the media for winning international awards or experimentation or breaking rules or appearing humble or being media savvy and youth-based and maadern, it hurts. Posts which are harsh on other composers must be seen in this light.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:16 am

Courtesy @dagalti (i.e. P_R in twitter) :


adhu romba deepammA: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=605816779449842 … OTOH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2QBe4k2iQQ …

Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:25 pm

There's a separate thread on IR's lyrics, so don't want to dwell too much on that aspect here.

However, want to register that as an additional specialty of rAsA (though not totally exclusive, because there could have been yesteryear composers who did lyrics too ; also, there were reasonably successful MDs like TR / GA who did lyrics too, though they are more of "all-rounders" rather than full fledged composers).

If you compare one-one with the likes of GR-KVM-MSV-ARR-Later, none can stand anywhere close to rAsA in Thamizhppulamai!

DM has posted a youtube link in the Vaali homage thread (some Vaali felicitation function) and rAsA's Thamizh in that video is simply stunning!
(Words too fall like sa-ri-ga-ma-pa-tha-ni notes from him Shocked)

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:28 pm

app_engine wrote:If you compare one-one with the likes of GR-KVM-MSV-ARR-Later, none can stand anywhere close to rAsA in Thamizhppulamai!

IR-ku munnOdi anga Papanasam Sivan. Lyrics and music felicity. Tamil on par with IR. Music he was bound by his times and was basically a classical composer and classical music nu pAthAlum, on par, greater than IR nu kooda sollalaam. But musical all rounder across genres, lyrics, composing for films, etc IR dhaan. It is also arguable that the yesteryear greats could not have been exposed to WCM and a comparison could be stupid. Yes valid point there. But again, we ought to acknowledge that IR was a product of his times and what he has brought to Indian Film Music; adha varungaalam vAzhthum.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:17 am

I've just featured 'kAlai nEra rAgamE' in GA thread and mentioned the 'rAsAththi manasula' in the IR-lyrics thread.

When I looked at that vinyl cover, I got reminded of something that I touched upon earlier but one that should definitely be highlighted again in this thread.

That of small-time-movie-enthusiasts coming to Chennai pinning their hopes in rAsA Smile

Look, even the movie's title is 'rAsAvE onna nambi' Laughing (And it was a decent success, songs were patti-thotti hits)!

Raj Kiran, of course, made it reasonably big in the kanavuththozhiRchAlai! He is listed as the producer (being an ex-disti, possibly had the pulse of what village centers liked those days and carefully invested in his first production!). The one listed as director was some IR-chinna-vayasu-naNban I think. Another 'rAsAvE onna nambi' case, possibly! No need to even discuss about the hero who owed a lot to rAsA music for his jiginA cine life!

What a contrast to many TF celebrities who made movie makers paupers (some to the extent of even committing suicide)!

As a MD, rAsA is unparalleled in this aspect!
applause 


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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:15 am

At the cost of deviating from the thread, reminded of this Gounder scene (enakku IR, Gounder'a vuttA vEra reference point illa. suthi suthi ingayE dhaan varuven).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ5N8w1zx68

laugh

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  plum on Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:56 am

V_S wrote:Thanks Drunkenmunk.

Drunkenmunk wrote:And is he going back to MSV's soul again?  Innum Konjam Neram
Definitely! Whenever I first listened to this song, I sensed a 70s MSV song, but could not relate to which song. It even takes me to some old hindi song. It is still eluding me. Still I can faintly relate to enakkkoru kaadhali irukkindraal (muththaana muthallavO - 1976) kind of melody. Even when he has employed ghatam to convert to folk flavor, it cannot hide its ancestor. Wink

 
indha pAttula vara koodiya flavour, peace, syrupiness, sweetness,serenity(and inna piRA adjhectives from limited vocabulary of ARR fans) ellAm nEkku TK Karthik's songs from Aravan-la same same feeling evoked.

Since I dont listen to non-iR that closely, others can research this more

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