Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

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Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:11 pm

Well, I based the thread title on a tweet by P_R Wink

Also, there had been a few tweets by me, Drunkenmunk & Plum yesterday on the prevailing fights between MSV fans and IR fans during the late-70's & early-80's. I'm not a seasoned twitter yet (and hence cannot carry on that discussion effectively thru a series of tweets etc).

My tweet-laziness gets translated into a long post in the forum instead,  which will follow next...

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:26 pm

Let me start with a controversial statement :

Per my observation, before the arrival of IR, there was not a HCMSVF gang in TN.

For that matter, there were no HCKVMF / HCGRF / HCVRF gangs either.

I guess majority of the people who've seen me posting at tfmpage.com (now hub) or in this forum or twitter are aware of the fact that I was a baby in mid / late 60's and that I couldn't have observed much as to what was happening in the TFM scene then (except whatever opportunity I got to read from the archives of media of those years). So, no need to take it serious if I make some comments like "there was no street fights between GR fans v/s KVM fans or KVM fans v/s VR fans" etc Laughing

OTOH, I've been a very keen observer of what perusukaL discussed during early 70's about TFM - i.e. before the arrival of rAsA. Not just that, being a reader of everything that I could get hold of (like they used to say, even kadalai madichcha paper) and a regular to public libraries during holidays, my observations on the TFM scene purely from a TN pAmara rasigan PoV won't be way off the mark.

That's why I even indulge in this discussion.

And, that's why I dare to make this bold statement, that, it was the arrival of IR that created "pOrALi MD fan" mentality among ordinary TN people Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:43 pm

As a careful reader can observe, I have been talking about 'pAmara' 'ordinary' TN public only apart from whatever media was around in 70's / 80's (newspapers, weekly mags, radio) and not about those inside filmi circles / heavy-duty music circles, when I mention "pOrALi-MDF" mentality.

Simply because, I had neither cine-circle connections nor my family / majority of relatives / friends and otherwise accomplices of parents had any full-fledged musical connections. I guess that had been the case of majority of TN people / movie watchers anyways. (enna oru generalization Laughing)

So, while there could have been a few elite groups that had lost sleep over MSV-TKR split / Shankar-Ganesh songs getting as much popular as mellisai mannar songs - to the point that even MGR signed him up etc, the general public or even the nosey media typically didn't talk a lot about the MD-thingy those days.

Particularly interesting to me were the TFM discussions among relatives (parents / grand parents / aunts / uncles / cousins etc) and friends which typically had some heated discussions ONLY around singers / lyricists / on-screen personnel.

For e.g., dad was a big time AMR fan with a lot of liking for MKT / NSK / CSJ / TRM (used to sing aloud their songs mostly) & typically dismissed TMS as some "MKT-wannabe" who cleverly did MGR-Sivaji mimicry and made it big Laughing Likewise, there were endless discussions heard by me, among those groups -comparing KD with Pattukkottai / Vaali, PS with Jikki / Janaki / P Leela / VJ and similar discussions.

No need to even mention the MT-NT group adi dhadees related to the "songs of their icons", which typically never had any MD tag. Not until the arrival of IR!

Let me ask all post-IR pOrALi-MSVFs (if anyone is still around and cared to visit here), how many times they had discussed with pOrALi-KVMFs as to why 'pAttum barathamum' is no less than thiruviLaiyAdal / thillAnA M / thiruvarutselvar Laughing

The true fact was, even most NTFs of those days didn't care / know who was the MD of a specific movie. During the late-70's & 80's, I've had so many "fights" to establish IR's "classical credentials" (chinnakkaNNan azhaikkiRAn, sreedEvi en vAzhvil, vEdham nee, nAnoru ponnOviyam kinds were my defenses to their pAttum nAnE / mannavan vandhAnadi stuff and I never knew then that most of those weren't MSV numbers at all Laughing)

That is why I confidently say, there was no pOrALi-MSV-fan-gang prior to the arrival of IR.

Interestingly, while IOKS announced the name of Lyricist & MD at times and not always, AIR stations except vividh bharathi (i.e. the regular Madras, Coimbatore, Trichy, Tirunelveli stations) announced only movie name & singers when they played songs!

That was the standard all through the 70's & 80's too! (I didn't know if it changed in 90's). And we should keep it mind that radio was the main source for TFM then, apart from political functions / kalyANam kAdhu kuththu kind of loudspeaker blasts and movie theaters themselves! So, the MD wasn't even identified with songs MOST of the times - not a fault of MSV but he didn't do anything to change such situation.

Though I have read vikatan / kumudam every week in 70's, I don't remember coming across any MSV pic in them and didn't know how he looked like - until after IR's arrival! (OTOH, I had seen countless pictures of Kannadasan - just to compare)


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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:33 pm

Now, a small request - let's not derail the discussion / detour into how MSV was humble and didn't want limelight and this / that.

That is not the point of the discussion at all.

Neither is my current point of discussion directly relating to the musical aspects / quality etc of MSV's compositions. Being not an expert, I'll leave such discussion points to Sureshji, Drunkenmunk, V_Sji , plum and such jAmbavAns.

All I want to establish at this point is, that, the "appearance" of a HCMSVF group happened ONLY AFTER the arrival of rAsA. There was no such loyalty among pAmara TFM fans before that.

Had it been KVM or anyone from prior era whoever was the market leader at the time of rAsA's arrival, that one would have been the icon picked by the "anti-IR" groups of 70's & early 80's to be their icon! Solo appreciation / loyalty etc were not the reasons IMHO.

Funnily enough, many people of early 70's even considered that listening to TFM itself was NOT cool Smile(Eye-witness to the slightings of TFM by many HFM lovers, ABBA-BoneyM fanatics etc.) இந்த லட்சணத்துல என்னத்த எம் எஸ் வி விசிறி அடையாளம்?

When IR became darling of masses overnight - with his annakkiLi badhrakALi - many that typically looked down anything from pattikkAdu teamed up with genuine lovers of prior era TFM (who were MD-agnostic until IR's arrival) to grab the "prevailing numero uno aka MSV" as their mascot, to put down IR & what he was ushering in.

That is the way I see the psychological pattern of the "hurried formation of pOrALI MSVF gang", POST IR's arrival...

inimEl nALaikku Smile


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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:14 pm

Nalla thread. Helps bring in perspectives from personal experiences which tend to reality and helps form an overall opinion.

I was less than 4 yrs old when Roja released and grew up for 23 years in Madras/Chennai. So you can understand when I say I grew up in a Rahman wave (especially in an urban center like Madras). I was a kid in the 90s and to me, Raaja's genius was pretty much a sevi vazhi vandha sEdhi from dad and mom who grew up in MSV and IR's eras. I was opened up to Raaja by a sama kaala album. Dad bought Bharathi's cassette and Nirpadhuve fascinated me. I then agreed this was a genius at work and since dad and mom were fans, that amount of respect percolates through your system too Smile  But outside in school and with friends and cousins, it was still Rahman. IR happened to be a yesteryear composer (not very different from KVM and MSV in most eyes) who was replaced by ARR like IR replaced MSV.

What changed things was a 3 month stay at chithappa's place in 2006 (well into my teens) when my mother had a surgery. There were 2 chithappas there, one of whom was an IR fan and into some classical music and the other was a little distant to films in general but into classical music. Being connoisseurs, they could pick the raga of a song in a flash and would quiz me. Some classical music listening started there. I realized one thing there. In film songs, one composer who could maintain a raga throughout a song and yet keep it accessible to the common man was Raaja. Idhazhil Kadhai Ezhudhum was the second turning point (after Nirpadhuve). More importantly, one night, when one chithappa (not into films) was out of town with his wife and son and the other chithappa and chithi were there, Mounam Sammadham was played on TV. We started to watch and by the last 45 mins, those 2 had gone out to shop some minor things. The BGM in the climax translated the horror as would be into me and hit me between the eyes (chillingly morbid chorus with violins iirc). BGM illEnA anga padam, climax reNdum flat. That really did open my eyes towards Raaja and told he wasn't just a great composer of songs but could lift and narrate a film with his music. Increased respect, fandom Very Happy  It was a gradual process you see, taking about 6 years.

The final nail in the coffin was @complicateur's article in TOI in 2011 where in an elegy to MV, he digressed to Kanavil Midhakkum from EVK and hearing that, I was mesmerized and checked out the album, got blown away and realized there is much, much more of Ilayaraaja than what I was hearing and I started digging into his oeuvre. I've not gotten out yet Smile

Coming back to the main point, I doubt if folks my age would have gotten exposed to Raaja in the myriad different ways that I did and I will understand if they are loyal to Rahman. Heck, I still enjoy his songs a lot and they were an important part of my childhood (that adage which says whatever you grew up with is the real shizz) and nostalgia and all that Smile  But the fulfillment I get with discovering something new inside me (what the music does to me, which cannot be described by any other term) and with the musical process that goes into his creations with every film (BGM, unparalleled) and song (across a humongous 930 odd films) is something that is loyal to Raaja. So without getting into a comparison between the 2, these are the reasons I tilt 100% towards Raaja.

Coming to MSV-IR, it is certainly an interesting point which you bring when you say that people didn't really care much before IR entered and the real divisions started once he came in. I can't answer that since it was before my time. But I do have a few points from my father. He is in his early 50s today and hence spent his childhood with KVM/MSV/TKR and his youth with IR. He isn't into Rahman (enjoys a few of his songs and that's about it) the way I was (because of my time, surroundings, upbringing) but did feed that Raaja appreciation into my genes Smile Coming to the point, he was in college from 1975-80. IIRC, the bigger fight was to establish SPB against TMS. SPB was rising but not yet numer uno (which he attained under Raaja in TFM) in 1975. There were a few of dad's closest friends who have gone to adi dhadis on TMS vs SPB in the late 70s when the transition actually took place. IR vs MSV was starting to get heated towards the final stages of college (when IR actually started to rise phenomenally). Dad was branded a turncoat by an MSV veriyar (who is one of his closest pals even today) when he switched allegiance to IR towards '77-'78 LOL That person has introduced me to a lot of MSV/TKR/KVM and expanded my horizon into appreciating TFM before Raaja (Rahman I grew up with. Raaja is every inch a personal discovery which makes it all the more personal between me and Raaja Smile ). That person, even today, calls IR and ARR as thagara dappa composers Very Happy who cannot bring the soul and calm in a melody which an MSV or for that matter a KVM can. Dad would often disagree and there would be fights. But that uncle once did acknowledge that I hear music across eras which he didn't because of his bias for MSV and agenda to say he is the greatest. So yeah. MSV remains a great composer. But it stops there. The one complete authority on composition, orchestration, recording and most importantly, re-recording for films will be Raaja. However, that is academic and may not interest everyone. I can only talk for myself, and I already did, and say that the personal discovery every day, which will go on due to the humongous number of films he's done, is something I am able to connect with Raaja immensely and the human emotions he feeds into his music will make me loyal to Raaja for life Smile

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:22 am

app_engine wrote:Funnily enough, many people of early 70's even considered that listening to TFM itself was NOT cool Smile(Eye-witness to the slightings of TFM by many HFM lovers, ABBA-BoneyM fanatics etc.) இந்த லட்சணத்துல என்னத்த எம் எஸ் வி விசிறி அடையாளம்?

Absolutely. idha notice paNNala. In fact, while I did mention that MSV-parama visiri uncle (who tried to invite MSV for his daughter's wedding and almost succeeded Smile  andha level veri) got into tiffs with anyone who brought IR or any other composer, there were a lot of others who were into SDB/RDB, Kishore/Rafi/Manna/LM/AB. At their 25th reunion in 2005, they brought out a vintage collection book of their memoirs (Camphor on Cauvery) and a CD collection of close to 250-300 pre 70s/70s Hindi songs. I managed to pilfer a copy and have it with me till today (helped listen to a bit of Hindi too). So the influence of Hindi was massive in that era in the early 70s when Tamil folks started digging into pre 70s and then-sama kaala Hindi stuff. It could partially also be because the anti-Hindi agitation stole the limelight against Hindi and while the ideology of anti-Hindi agitation was right, it did deny us a lot of good stuff from Hindi, including the songs. In fact, dad went to work in Durgapur and Calcutta in the early 80s and without Hindi or Bengali knowledge, suffered a lot in communication and hence made me and my sister learn Hindi and Sanskrit in school/college. My Tamil is hence entirely mother taught and self taught Embarassed 

So the soft corner to Hindi songs can never be in question in that time. Other than a few HCMSV fans, like the person I mentioned, who actually felt a serious challenge to MSV only after IR entered (KVM times, MSV was full of fire and in his peak too nu sollalAm but around the mid-70s, he was beginning to lose commercial hold though I'd argue his musical output really suffered only from the early 80s). Hence such HCMSV fans might have had to express themselves vehemently only after IR's entry is my possible theory.

Also, that MSV-veriyar, my father as with most others in their college and youth were massive NT fans when it came to acting, KD fans in writing and TMS/PS fans in singing. While we haven't really had a major challenge to NT or KD's crown (commercial replacements are a natural process with time. What I mean is wrt quality) and it is possible to argue they were closest to perfection, we have seen MSV, TMS and PS being replaced by IR, SPB and SJ who updated them wonderfully well with the changing times and tastes. Hence, inga dhaan adi dhadi and fights would have had scope. I remember my dad mentioning an anecdote wherein the MSV-veriyar (also bayangara loyal to NT, KD, TMS and PS) got wild at another friend who poked fun that SPB/SJ/IR > TMS/PS/MSV and not minding that he was having his bath, chased the other guy with a shower pipe (which he broke) and just a towel across his waist and soap all over the body across the Lapis and Pearl hostels in RECT runninglol . MSV-veriyar had Hardy's physique while the other person was akin to Laurel. In those times, a God send for the MSV fans was Ninaithaale Inikkum in 1979, MSV's magnum opus with guitars and drums with KH and RK; going away from his comfort zone into a new territory and trying to match IR at his own game and dealing with a new wave of stars when IR was nearly sealing it. But other than that, they didn't have much to argue with.

So you bring a very valid point wrt Hindi domination and other than few very HCMSV fans, the rest were into Hindi and then came against IR when he replaced MSV and it did take a couple of years, as with my dad, for IR to win the majority over and for the battle lines to be drawn.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:06 am

Good things you guys got going. 
I am a raaja's chellappiLLai - born into the era where Raaja was singing to me living into an era where he is singing to my daughters - so totally spoilt. Havent had any exposure to MSV craze apart from stray numbers here and there and quite wise to the charms of olaga music to fall prey to ARR mania. Having said that let me break apart the notion that ARR can do fantastic tunes for pre written lyrics. This is a huge myth and very clear that lyricists have to write lines (numerous ) and our hero will pick and choose ones that have a semblance of tune in them - so pretty much pick and choose tunes in pre written lyrics - mix and match - idhu velayattu not creation. Contrast this to genuine composers like Raaja , Dhakshinamoorthy, MSV - heck they can take lyrics with just 2 to 4 sandhams and make it into a fantastic song. Late TKRamamoorthy could just take "vaan nila nila alla" just 4 sandhams and makes into a memorable pallavi hook - that is process of creation and Raaja is adept at making verses to tunes, writing tunes for verses, making interlude magic, fitting it with a terrific post lude and then creating most complex rhythm patterns known yet to humans all in 5 minute song length. So in short I hate the chronological ordering itself and our man's position in it - for he is an anachronism - a musician who should have born along with thyagaiyyar,Bach and Mozart instead of in this music retarded generation.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:53 am

Particularly interesting to me were the TFM discussions among relatives (parents / grand parents / aunts / uncles / cousins etc) and friends which typically had some heated discussions ONLY around singers / lyricists / on-screen personnel.
The true fact was, even most NTFs of those days didn't care / know who was the MD of a specific movie. 

This, in my opinion is one of the great tragedies in IFM. The true creative minds are ignored and the masses give undue credit to irrelevant people such as on-screen actors. This is a pet peeve of mine and I am often at pains to point this out to people. At this point I will digress a bit to share my personal opinion on who deserves to take credit for the song or music's success. I am sure some people will disagree with me on this, but I strongly feel that the person(s) who compose, orchestrate and arrange the music should take the bulk of the credit for a song. I would say >75%, but that is just a random number I choose whimsically. To me personally, lyrics are not that important, but I do understand that many people enjoy the lyrics as much as the music and I will concede that lyricists deserve some credit. And though I am a huge fan of SPB and agree with Ravinat and others on how he nails IR's compositions every single time, I feel that in IFM in general, singers get way too much credit while the composers don't get as much and the nobody even bothers about the instrumentalists.

In fact, I think that things are somewhat better in the south as compared to the north. In my interactions with numerous north Indian fans of Old HFM, I have observed that precisely no one I know has any clue of the composer and only know them as KK, Rafi, Lata, or worse, Rajesh Khanna, Dev Anand or Amitabh songs. Shockingly,  most NIs I have met have no clue who Shankar Jaikishan or Salil Choudhary were. At best they have heard of RDB or SDB.

Now, coming to the point of this thread, I will try to speculate on why only after IR people started noting the name of the MD. First, as I have heard SPB, Uttam Singh and numerous others testify, IR is one of the few COMPLETE composers around. He does all the work including orchestration and arranging, decides every single minute detail in the instrumentation and percussion, all at a mind boggling pace. I have read interviews of a trumpet player of RD Burman who mentions that when he played for RDB, the interludes were not precisely written and musicians had quite a bit of leeway during recording sessions. A recent interview of Pt. Baalesh in Solvanam which Appji share a few days back confirms that this is the case with all composers except IR. I am not sure about MSV's creative process, so i cannot comment on that. Anyway on the whole, my guess is that, it could have been the appearance of a man whose work reflected almost entirely his creative output that people started taking note of the composer. Thereafter, once again, just to take sides, as is typical of the average Indian, the mindless masses started jumping on the MSV/IR bandwagons. Personally, I believe as I mentioned earlier that MSV and HFM composers of the past are hugely underrated, singers given way more credit than they deserve and the actors who lip-synced atrociously overrated. I am happy that at least indirectly, people finally started appreciating a great composer like MSV after IR's arrival. It still irks me when people refer to a great MSV melody as an MGR song or Sivaji song.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:35 am

fring151 wrote:It still irks me when people refer to a great MSV melody as an MGR song or Sivaji song.

Don't want to divert discussion, but for a better part of the Sivaji-MSV-TMS-KD combination, it was almost a 25% contribution from each. A song like Yaar andha nilavu is impossible to judge for the music, lyrics, singing and acting (no one has smoked a cigarette more stylishly, not even Rajni Smile ). But yes, I agree with you when you say that composers were not given credit before IR came and it is sad that way and in a way good that MSV's credentials came in the forefront as far as the mainstream were concerned once IR came in. I also agree with the MGR part doublethumbsup

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  fring151 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:49 am

A song like Yaar andha nilavu is impossible to judge for the music, lyrics, singing and acting (no one has smoked a cigarette more stylishly, not even Rajni  ). But yes, I agree with you when you say that composers were not given credit before IR came and it is sad that way and in a way good that MSV's credentials came in the forefront as far as the mainstream were concerned once IR came in. I also agree with the MGR part 

Listened to this song after ages. Thanks Drunkenmunk! You might be right that at the time, each of MSV, KD, Sivaji and TMS had 25% role in the compositions, and yes, that was some stylish acting in that song! My contention, though is that, and forgive me for I digress again, ultimately, it is the music which decides if a song is going to stand the test of time. To give an example, don't we enjoy Kaadhal oviyam sung by the maestro himself and Maate mantramu sung by SPB equally? One GREAT singer can do almost as much justice to a composition as another GREAT singer. Note that I say great here. Obviously a Karthik or a Hariharan cannot match a KJY or SPB as we so clearly witnessed in recent IR concerts. But nevertheless, replace one great singer with another for a given composition and even change the language and one can enjoy it just as much (Idhazhil kadhai ezhudhum and Lalitha priya kamalam is another case in point). I think of a composer as the mastermind who develops an algorithm and singers and musicians as the ones who implement it. Actors and others are merely an embellishment in some cases (like in the example Drunkenmunk gave) or a distraction in others (read: most IR compositions). 

That being said, I am still not clear as to how IR's arrival made people take note of the MD. In my previous post, I was just speculating. Thinking about it again though, I am not very sure if my speculation is accurate. The reason is that in the late 70s and 80s, IR was almost invisible in the media and hardly gave any interviews. I don't even know when exactly people came to know that he composes spontaneously and started noting the technical mastery in his songs. Was it the sheer prolificity of his output and his dazzling experimentation with diverse musical forms and introduction of native folk music that made people sit up and finally start wondering who the brain behind these efforts was? Was it the stunning background scores, a hitherto neglected area in IFM that piqued their curiosity? I can only guess. Others might be able to shed more light.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:43 am

fring151,

Yes. You make a very valid point. A song stands the test of time first for its music. What we had with KD, NT and TMS in addition to MSV was an overall wholesome effect where the song visually and aurally was effing brilliant. With IR, he updated the aural excellence to incredibly unbelievable levels blessed with an SPB, KJY and SJ (later Chitra) for support while we never have had replacements for a KD or a NT (Kamal coming a little close but a few notches below nevertheless w.r.t acting). While such acting and lyrical drops in quality should not matter in this discussion forum, your point is taken.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Great posts, Drunkenmunk!

Nice to read your personal experience with TFM / IFM, looking forward to more of this Smile

I totally agree that there were discerning and true HC MSV fans prior to the arrival of rAsA, like your dad's collegemate ; but such people must have been few to get noticed.

Also, while they had their clear loyalty with MSV (or the V-R duo), I don't think they possibly had any issues with KVM or even Shankar Ganesh. One reason could be the similarity in approach to film music by most contemporary composers.

Like T Sounder's recent article on Kalyani rAgam says, if the MD's name is not spelt out, it wasn't easy to identify who actually composed a song.

The best example is 'kAdhOdu dhAn nAn pEsuvEn' - a song I found out to be composed by V Kumar ONLY in the late 90's, thanks to tfmpage Shocked

Seeing a MSV-LRE B&W pic in a photo studio could have played in my mind's psyche but the pure-instrumental-version of that song was in our school - played sometimes before functions. The same vinyl disk had instrumental versions of MSV songs, like 'viLakkEtRi vaikkiREn, vidiya vidiya eriyattum'. It was possibly titled something like "mellisai-mannar-pAdalkaL-vAththiya-isaiyil" Embarassed

It was my bad memory of course, but if that happened to me who had been looking for MD-name right from the late 70's, just imagine the plight of any average pAmara TFM rasigar of 70's.

Regardless of the loyalty of pre-IR fans - MSV or otherwise, I am pretty sure that most were only "closet MD fans"  - waiting for the emergence of a pattikkAttAn - to come out openly and defend their icon vehemently!

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:19 pm

Reg - Hindi Adhikkam:

One strong MSV-defender from my 12th class must be recalled here.

He was the one who said "MSV gets paid 1 lakh, theriyumA?" to me (in 1981), when I mentioned about my cousin's bus travel with an asst.director of tik-tik-tik - who said IR got paid a whopping sum of 56,000 (or 58,000 may be) for that movie Laughing

That guy never missed any opportunity to attack rAsA and claimed to be a staunch MSVF. I caught him one day talking to another person that Mohd. Rafi was his most-fav singer Laughing (Though both need not be mutually exclusive, in school days idhellAm periyya pointtu to attack - "How can you claim MSV is great when your preference is mainly indhi songs" Laughing )

It was a similar case in 'school pAttuppOtti' kind of programs during 70's - Bobby / YKB had as much presence as MGR-Sivaji songs Wink



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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:26 pm

Great post jaiganesh, neenga theLindha neerOdai Smile

Interesting observations fring151!

I totally concur with you on the composer having to do major share of the creativity part w.r.t. any song and deserving more credit than the executor(s) (sometimes executioners Embarassed )!

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:24 pm

app_engine wrote:Also, while they had their clear loyalty with MSV (or the V-R duo), I don't think they possibly had any issues with KVM or even Shankar Ganesh.

Absolutely agree. Very valid point there. Generation gap nu sollalAm. Some refused to move on. Others, like my dad, did move on. Also, cases of bias were there in the generation before my dad. My granddad, mother's father, was a fan of Hindi films even in the 50s and 60s. He's in his late 80s today and having been close with him as a child and looking back at those conversations now, gives an idea (need not be a one which was widely held by everyone in his times). Thaathaa refused to acknowledge NT, KD, MSV, KVM, IR, TMS, PS, SPB, PS or SJ LOL He was certainly biased that way. avurukku cinema naa Hindi, acting naa Dilip Kumar, Prithviraj Kapoor, singing naa Rafi, Lata, Asha, music naa Naushad laugh periya Mughal-E-Azam visiri. chinna vayasula adhunaala konjam Naushad paattelaam kEttEn nu vechukkOnga. But indha mAdhiriyum irundhurukkAnga. adhOda extension'AvE 70s la Hindi craze in a general crowd'a pAkkalAm'ngradhu en abiprAyam.

Also, wanted to mention one important point which I forgot yesterday in my reminiscence. Between Bharathi and the 2006 Bodhi mara gnaanodayam, a very important bridge that made the transport complete and did not cut the link was Thiruvasagam in 2005. appa'va pudungi cassette vAnginEn (not a fan of audio CDs then and waited for the cassettes to hit the stores Very Happy ). I mainly wanted to see how Manickavasagar was given musical shape, with a new growing aarvam to read more Tamil (having been denied in school and in college then). IR moolamA dhAn Manickavasagar ellAm enakku mainstream la vandhAr. Cassette vaangina night album kEttOm. amma'vum appa'vum karanjuttAnga (something that happened with me a year later too). Remember mother saying she was lifted to a higher plane and felt she was being cradled to sleep in the high heavens by the music and lyrics of Muthu Natraamam (a then 42 yr old saying this!).

Thiruvasagam mAdhiri album ellAm all world only Raaja fossible.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:28 pm

One more point to be noted is the 'style of music' and 'discernable patterns'.
From a layman's POV, MSV and Raaja have one thing in common - their songs
 have a quality and pattern that can be imbibed and reflected by other composers.
The Raajaishness or MSVness of the resultant composition only enhances composer's
 reputation - currently Imman is doing that and reaping tremendous benefits, so is DSP
 whenever he invokes Raaja for Raajazz. Any one invoking ARR has been targeted as ARR clone
 and their songs have very short shelf life and so has been their reputation - again Imman is the example
 when he was struggling in the early days with this stamp on his forehead. Raaja could invoke MSVness
without losing his self - so could Maragadhamani in 90s and Deva to an extent without losing their
 self. ARR's clones had no such luck - for his copy paste pattern is so detrimental to 
organic film music composition, that as a creative person one can only learn the use of technology, not 
music.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:28 pm

Interesting recap Drunkenmunk, once again, on TbI!

Now we oldies can relax that torch-bearing of IR-ism is safe in younger hands Smile

As I extensively touched upon, the very idea of "pOrALi MD fan" from a pAmara TN-er's position has significantly emerged post-1976!

Going by what goes on the web world (as I am limited to that space and no longer privileged to "oral-shout-fights-on-TFM" anymore), such "pOrALi MDF" mentality still seems to continue Wink

This is precisely one more point, among many others, that make the phenomenon called IR quite unique in the TFM scenario. (If people have proof otherwise of prior era street fights among patti-thotti on MD, please enlighten us).

That, plus many other non-musical aspects related to TFM (i.e. unique TN cultural aspects pioneered by IR's arrival - such as TFM teakkadais, TFM recording centers, TFM buses, MD-on-poster, MD-on-hoardings, MD-engineered-hit-heroes / movies / directors etc, that have been extensively traced by me during my SPB-IR series covering >15 years of the hit combo), make IR a different kind of trend setter!

So, I don't agree to this timeline thingy in principle : MSV-IR-ARR - a big NO!

Even purely on musical aspects, that could be nonsense! (I may be able to dwell on that but leave it to real literate ones).

However, on non-musical aspects from a purely TFM PoV, (e.g "pOrALi MDF" thingy I'm trying to unveil), once again there's no such timeline!

IR is the definite pioneer in TN!

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Absolutely agree with App saar.
IR in 80s and 90s could dictate what film got made and what did not - MSV hasnt done that
 and so has ARR - their control over other aspects of film making has been pretty minimal and 
this sets IR markedly different from any MD in any varisai..

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  ravinat on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:09 pm

jaiganesh wrote:Absolutely agree with App saar.
IR in 80s and 90s could dictate what film got made and what did not - MSV hasnt done that
 and so has ARR - their control over other aspects of film making has been pretty minimal and 
this sets IR markedly different from any MD in any varisai..

 Jai

  I hate to get into comparing composers. However, there is one aspect of IR that you brought up about dictating. This man is complex - he is a team player and a loner at the same time. He personifies 'encapsulation' in the IFM business. You only have to provide the parameters and the values. You have zero control over the service, once you have made the service call. You have all the flexibility with the number of parameters and their type till you make that call.

  Trouble is, our film guys are not object oriented - they are just market oriented Very Happy

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  app_engine on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Jai,
Nice post on IR/MSV musical idioms - keep sharing more Smile

I'll continue to stick to the pOrALi MDF for a couple more posts, meanwhile Wink

Reg. the pOrALi MDF thingy, while MSV "benefited" from being a contemporary of IR in getting a few PMSVFs, the biggest beneficiery happened to be ARR IMHO, because IR has established the MD-focus for more than a decade! Also, IR continued to perform for many years after ARR shot in (thus feeding the PIRF gang which made sure PARRF has someone to fight Laughing No enemy no military budget, you see)


Last edited by app_engine on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:20 pm

ravinat wrote:
jaiganesh wrote:Absolutely agree with App saar.
IR in 80s and 90s could dictate what film got made and what did not - MSV hasnt done that
 and so has ARR - their control over other aspects of film making has been pretty minimal and 
this sets IR markedly different from any MD in any varisai..

 Jai

  I hate to get into comparing composers. However, there is one aspect of IR that you brought up about dictating. This man is complex - he is a team player and a loner at the same time. He personifies 'encapsulation' in the IFM business. You only have to provide the parameters and the values. You have zero control over the service, once you have made the service call. You have all the flexibility with the number of parameters and their type till you make that call.

  Trouble is, our film guys are not object oriented - they are just market oriented Very Happy
I wish there was someone like Raaja in software business - just hand over and wait for things to come out neat and dapper on the other side (offcourse you have to show up in 
time for the meetings and give him the right specs!). You tell him your needs - he gives you the requisite output - a more involved film maker might not be comfortable with Raaja's style this way - but one has to understand that there is only one raaja around - they can go dick around and poke their noses into other studios all they want.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:28 pm

Another very important aspect of Raaja when it comes to composing is his penchant for differentiating the output with very same set of inputs. Meaning 
you might have the same kannadasan or vaali with violins and tabla - could be that the situational needs of the song also the same, but the output will be very 
different -current day MDs will achieve this only through a software version and make - Raaja can do it right from the tune, arrangement and tonal quality. He would push
 the lyricist and instrumentalists to the edge and sometimes over the edge to achieve this result - and for that he creates a musical idea that challenges everyone - lyricist to the 
tabla player that finishes the song. As I write this one song that comes to my mind is "Poo poo poo" from the drohi's pudhu nellu pudhu naathu. Look at how hurried the tune is - any one else would have slowed it for it is a functional duet - not raaja - he pushes and the result the lyricist has risen up to the challenge and the singers (SPB and SJ) have to up the ante now - result a wonderful song. All the man places on the table is a musical idea to conquer and that is what has gained the respect of a singer no less than SPB, for singing it elevates him as a singer - much more than some job he has to do to make his living.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:15 am

jaiganesh wrote:I wish there was someone like Raaja in software business 

laugh naan kooda oru phulow'vula idha vEra vidhamA paduchuttEn. paduchcha kaNNa aduppula vechchu karukkiraNum.

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  jaiganesh on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:22 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:
jaiganesh wrote:I wish there was someone like Raaja in software business 

laugh naan kooda oru phulow'vula idha vEra vidhamA paduchuttEn. paduchcha kaNNa aduppula vechchu karukkiraNum.

 spashtithum explanashanum kripya..

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Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:40 am

jaiganesh wrote:
Drunkenmunk wrote:
jaiganesh wrote:I wish there was someone like Raaja in software business 

laugh naan kooda oru phulow'vula idha vEra vidhamA paduchuttEn. paduchcha kaNNa aduppula vechchu karukkiraNum.

 spashtithum explanashanum kripya..

Software in films/meesic business nu artham Ayi saarE. adutha variya paduchapparam dhAn usuru vandhudhu.

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